011: How Immersion, Emotions, and 3,000 Words Made Matthias Fluent - Finnish Language Journey

So if I like, have read about the word, I don't know, river, then I can have this picture or this, this like tiny, tiny, subtle feeling about, I don't know, nature and, and being free and, and being like something about like, I think at that time is what it was important for me to like this kind of eternity of nature, which I had often when, when words related to nature were coming up. And , I also read for example, that it's not possible to learn any language the same way how you know, your mother tongue. Like to feel it the same . The same way how you feel about your mother tongue. . And that's why I wanted to learn the Finnish language. Like I wanted to also prove that thing wrong. Wrong. I wanted to know what happens if I really like focus on the emotions while I feel a word.

welcome to this episode of How I Learned Finnish With, Ohe today we have a very special guest. I got introduced to him through, one of my, through my activity on Reddit. I was putting my information about that, this podcast, out there on Reddit. And, somebody connected us and, yeah,

I don't even know how like,

yeah, I don't remember how exactly anymore. Yeah,

he sent me the Reddit at least, but

Right. And then here we are. It's, I think the initial contact was maybe like a month or two ago, and then, yeah.

Only that much, much. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I was in Norway, so

Right, you were in, yeah, yeah, yeah. right. Let's do a like, just a quick rapid fire.

by the way, thanks to call me special. I guess every guest is special.

Well, first of all, if you've done this, if, if you've achieved this goal, that is something special.

Yeah, that's true.

It's those, it's one of those hard things to achieve that doesn't put a million dollars in your account, but it's still hard to achieve. So yeah,

I once saw YouTube video, about somebody having the world record in pencil sharpening, so yeah,

pencil sharpening.

Yeah. How many pencils you can sharpen down to like completely decreasing them down to rubbish

that is, uh,

in, in, in a certain amount of time.

That that's very specific.

Yeah. Also very hard, but very okay lets go. on Sorry.

That's fine. Fine. Alright. so let's rapid fire beginning. Name

Mathias.

Age

25.

what's your profession?

I'm now a research assistant here. We're filming in Aalto, in, we're doing something about helium super fluid helium. But otherwise, I'm a student in officially electrical engineering, but I basically just do physics nowadays.

Oh, wow. Okay. Right. Fair. And, um, do you have any nicknames?

I have a, I have this acronym in which I use on the internet, which is called Matthew Steel. . I call most of my accounts like that because my brother is from the stronghold , did you ever play stronghold?

No.

Okay. The main character were there was called Matthew Steel and my name is Matthias so that's in English, it's Matthew. And for some stupid reason, my brother called me Matthew Steel at some point. So,

and then it just stuck

I now just, yeah, I just keep using it. But otherwise, yeah. I have, I have a second name. I once on Tinder, I once called myself Ed because my second name is Edward, but

So like,

never really, it never really stuck. I tried to use it for fearful for a little while, but, uh, I don't know.

Didn't really work out like that.

Yeah. I just, I'm just used to, used to naming, to using the name.

Do you feel like if. You went on a date, and then before you meet each other in person for the first time they shouted, ed, you would respond to it?

If They shouted. Edward, maybe I would,

but not Ed.

No That was just because I don't want to put my real name on Tinder.

Fair. Fair. Yeah. 'cause you know, I don't know what you get up to on there, but

No, no, no. I just, nothing weird. Nothing weird. Don't worry. But it's just, I just, it's just a friend of mine once said it's like a fish market, so Yeah. Yea

It definitely, yeah.

At least feels like it

a very inefficient fish market.

Yeah. Yeah. Never find any fish. Yeah.

But, uh, okay. So briefly, how does Finland show up in your life story? Like what brought you here, how long you've been living here

in my life story, I mean, right now of course I'm living here, so quite on a daily basis, I would say, but in my life story. Um, well, first time if you really like, want to take it precisely. I normally never tell that story because I'm tired of telling the story every day. But, uh, now we can like take, take the long run. So first time I actually, first time I got somehow introduced with the northern countries was when we had like this little globe, like this little, where you see the whole world. You know, and then I checked out Europe and then, uh, I don't know, I encountered Sweden and then that was like the first time I even. Found the northern lands and then I found like Sweden has this really ugly name. I don't know why.

Like in Swedish or just the word? Sweden?

No, no. The word sw Sweden is ugly in German. I dunno. It's called Schweden,I don't know. Yeah. Schweden I found it in German as a, as a child I was five or so. I know. I found it very ugly.

Right.

So this, but this has actually implications on later on. So, . So then the second time I, I forgot, like, encountered Finland was, um, when I was in Italy for one year as an exchange student. Okay. During, while I was 15. And the, the one of our like partners there, or like the guys who was with me in the same city was also fin was a finn So that was like kind of the first time how I ever got like some kind of, uh, relationship with Finland. But at that time, still very abstract. And then like later on. Um, I went to Nepal 'cause I was interested in meditation. I was like, I was having a hard time at school and got a little up. . And then I was getting interested in all this kind of like self-development and self exploration thingy and like, I don't know, repairing yourself and healing traumas, whatever. And, um, then I decided to go to Nepal for a few weeks, for six weeks. Uh, I actually got it like through, got a place where to do a little bit of volunteer work through somebody at my yoga studio. So I was really like into this kind of hippie, hippie stuff. And when I was in Nepal, I noticed that it's like kind of really, really rough to be that far away. And it's also like not really worth it to go to, to go that far away if you don't speak the language.

Right.

And also because it's hard like to go that far away on a regular basis. So I was like having this longing for something a bit more permanent, where I'm not just like going there for a while and then I'm never returning back.

Right, right.

So then the, then I was like, okay, next time I go anywhere, I'm gonna go do it in Europe. And I didn't want to go to Italy or like to, to the south. . Italy would be fine, but like I didn't, I wanted to like see something new. So, um, we can later still maybe go to like how it exactly played out. But in general, like the, if I would ever learn a new language or like go to another country, it would've been in the north. And because I didn't like the east and so I had to choose. And there, this is where Sweden comes from. . Where the Sweden part comes in. I , could've chosen if I want to go to the north Yeah. From Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and uh, Norway. But I didn't want to fly. So not Iceland. . And Denmark is boring because it's next to Germany. I'm from Germany, so like bruh,

just the neighbor.

. And Sweden. Dude, the name is just, no,

it's so funny the kind of things as kids just decide. it's that way. It's just that way. . I have a thing with bananas. I don't like bananas because of the name? No, not because of the name. Just taste wise and, uh, and, and I've managed to learn how to like bananas, but then I can't eat it in anything other than just as a banana. So if it's in something, it's like,

that's terrible. The other way around would be much nicer because banana just as an, or for me, it's like just a banana. It's kind of like dull. It's like, it's okay because it has a lot of sugar, but kind of like, eh,

I think maybe for me, maybe for my, um, so childhood, hated it. Then there's my sporting background. Mm-hmm. So not a bit like past age 10. . Then I was like, okay, we're doing sports. The pro, uh, what is it called that nutrients from? is a quick, quick hit.

Mmm. Yeah,

then it came, so I had to learn to eat it. . But so I think really, I still hate it, but it's like a necessary evil.

Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Maybe there's other ones dates or, so

that was never, that never showed up in my childhood, but if you're talking about like romantic dates. Yeah.

No,

I hate those as a kid too.

No, come on.

But yeah,

ughh you're a girl, you're, ewww,

she has cooties

or whatever,

but All right. All right. Okay. So what, like, so, so you moved to Finland and then like Yeah. Actually in the story of you coming here. So at what point did you then like decided, okay, I'm moving here, and then for what, and then all of this?

That was like, so my, my parents gave me, I was still a little fucked up after high school, so, so my parents gave me like this period of. Finding myself. Where I could just like, do whatever I want and like learn whatever I want. And, um, they Okay. Okay. No, I was, I was, I got a place as a nurse student in May, and my high school ended in something like July or so. . And then I went to Nepal in September. . And after that, I still had to wait like for eight months and, and, uh,

eight months for,

until the nurse nursing, like school started.

Oh, okay. Okay. So you had time to

Yeah, I wanted to study medicine at that point. . Later, later like, figured out that it was basically just for my own ego, because like medicine, oh, you're gonna become a doctor, . So, yeah. I don't know. What do you tell yourself when you're, uh, when you're young And, um, then, so then what I did was, uh. Like I was, I was, I think what I remember was that I was really still very much into this, like kind of trying to figure out how to feel strong emotions and strong positive emotions finding kind of the mystery in the world. So that was like where this kind of, uh, longing for far away places also came from. You know, when you're young just coming out of high school and you just want to explore, explore the world and, and like find new things. I still have that of course, but it's much more grounded nowadays. . Like much, I'm not getting swayed away that much by emotions anymore. And I also don't want like, or don't have the capacity for it. In my daily life. So at that point I was really like, I wanna, I don't know. Then I went hitchhiking for, for, uh, two weeks and I wanted to go to Finland because I was like kind of, oh, Finland is far away. It's up in the north. It sounds like mysterious and like somehow. There's where the real men, that's also like there's where the real men are, you know, like kinda like Viking thingy, even though we don't have much Viking theory. . I don't know. Something like that. And also like, uh, also something about proving myself. So I wanted to learn something difficult, so I wanted to learn a new language, um, just to have it on my freaking ego list.

Right. Hey some you gotta satisfy something and sometimes you can do that. Sometimes it's good.

I mean, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Like learn. I don't regret learning Finnish even though it was because of proving something, dude. Like of course not. No, it was great. So, so yeah,

I wish I had used that time for something else. it took quite a bit of effort to type, but yeah. But hey, we're here and we're here to thrive and not just, you know, you know, survive. So it's very important. So,

okay. That sounded like calendar, something you read in the calendar. You're here to thrive, not to survive.

Hey, like a slogan. Yeah.

Yeah.

, Okay, so hitchhiking to Finland, but then you, so did you end up going to the nursing school or you just completely changed your mind?

Yeah. No, I went to the nurse school in Germany and got kicked, got kicked out because

what?

Yeah, because like, um, different reasons. So one of, one of them was, um, at that time I was still not so good with adapting to different social circles.

Okay.

Um, and it's also, I was also like, I'm still, but, but nowadays I can like handle it. . Um, somebody who likes to think in a little bit uncontroversial ways maybe. In the sense of, um. Well, at that time I was like, I don't know, analyzing their social structure and noticing that, for example, they are all all addicted to to sugar and that like most of those people who are working there are actually kind of feeling, kind of like calculating in this real life. And then

people where

in the nursing school.

Okay, okay.

Like the school was nice, but the, um, the, like you always have like school first and then you go to one station where they have like certain diseases and then you learn working there and then you go back to school and so on. ? Yeah. And um, so this combination of me wanting to like do things differently and then also like already learn about something about medicine and not only about this like nursing stuff, um, together with just me being still up a little in the head. And, uh, also the real restrictive social circle there. Just, it just didn't fit together. Also, the people like, um. You noticed that there weren't people who went to university,

they were not the kind of people who went to university.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. And I'm definitely a person who, like, it was clear that I would go to university. And just by the, the amount, the, the like way how those people think I, it just clashed. Okay. So, so all those things together. But I mean, it was probably mostly because I was fucked up in the head

So, but wait, let, let's revisit this, even though it's not the main topic, what do you mean by they not people who go to University? 'cause is it like,

like they weren't academics. Right. And now my, my dad is an academic. My mother has gone to university. So I was very much somebody who, who wanted to know stuff, who wanted to learn all the time. . And those people like

were not that

No, no. Not at

all. And was it, was the pathway at that time for you that you go to the nursing school then after that you go to further medicine? Medical school

yeah

yeah . . Gotcha that makes sense.

And not, not to go to Finland, but then when I got. Like kicked out. . Then, um, it was, I, I didn't know what to do and I was like, kind of, maybe I would just apply for medicine in, in Finland. Just did that didn't work too. Like I, I was not actually, I was quite good at the, like at doing the exam here to the entry exam. I got like, almost through the first, it was during Corona corona then, uh, through the first of the two. Um, like kind of

in finnish you did the exam in finnish huh? . And you did well even though you just arrived.

Quite

well. Yeah.

It wasn't, it wasn't, I wasn't too bad. I think the, like they went, it was

Wow.

How much did I have? I was the, I think the, I, I think I had 55 points and the, the, I would've, with 70, I would've gotten through

in fi Were you, without you knowing any finnish really

No, no, no. I knew finnish like I had been.

Oh, okay.

I had been like, during the whole time while I was in nursing school, it was, there was one year and during that time I had been. Studying like already something, but I hadn't been talking too much. I had

Wait, you were in nursing school in Germany?

Yeah.

And you were learning finnish at that time?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Make it make sense.

It didn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense. Like, uh, so I, I don't even like, and I know, I think back

because I've heard of people who get enthusiastic about a language, like a lot of people here are very enthusiastic about Spanish or Japanese. I didn't know people would learn it to the level where they can almost get into the, do the med exams for med school. That that's, that's different level

of. Of being enthusiastic.

Yeah.

Actually was

from abroad, not even, from while i was living here from abroad

I I didn't do that. No, no, no. Okay. I didn't do the exam from abroad.

I mean Yeah. Like,

but I, I went like, uh, I went three months before the exam was, I went to here to, like, the idea was I started before and I already started reading stuff. I also started reading in Finnish a little bit. . While I was already, um, doing like nursing stuff. But then, um, the idea was that I would still like go for three months here to like, learn properly and then like get my B2 and, but like, that was also, I didn't get B2. I did, I got B1 in four months, but, but

Wow. Wow.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, I don't know, like that was also good. Already good, but like, . But, but still, like, as a young, young man, you're sometimes like just completely overestimate yourself or, uh, like, yeah.

So Hold on. So, so you. Okay. You, uh, at some point you hitchhiked to Finland.

Mm-hmm.

Then this was before you started at nursing school.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And then

a few months before, yeah,

few, a few months before. So you started essentially even best case scenario, you started learning finnish, let's say, when you hitchhiked to, to

a bit before. A bit before.

A bit before,

yeah. Like one and a half, uh, months before, before, before hitchhiking

You started learning finnish. But how were you learning Finnish at that time?

So, uh, I had this in German, in Germany. They have this langenscheidt little, um, books. It's, um,

actually, can I briefly interrupt you? I wanna get the, the timeline down first. Sure. And then I can ask you a different Sure, sure. So, so. Hit, uh, before hitchhike, and then after hitchhike you go, uh, back. Um, and you do. So

January 20th, 2019. ? January 19 January I started, I bought this, uh, I don't remember the name of the book, but it's like a 3000 words book. A lot of useless words. . They had the periodic table in it, uh, 3000, not 300, um,

three 3000, yeah.

Yeah.

3000 Word book.

Um, for like, just vocabulary. . And I started with that one. . And, and basically learned all the words in there. It wasn't really like the use one useful ones were just, I think half of them. .

Um, and this was before, this was before the hitchhike, right?

That was before. I didn't finish the book. I think I, I think I finished learning all the words were, no, actually, I think I finished learning most of them in the. Two and a half months.

Okay. So you like actually went through and like tried to memorize the words or so

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

3000. That would take you a long way.

It was one, the 1,500 I think

that you did.

Yeah. The, the, the, yeah.

Okay. And then when was the actual arrival? First arrival to Finland?

That was March something like 23rd of March in 2019.

March, 2019, okay. March, 2019, Finland on the hitchhike bit. Okay. And then you go back and you, you uh, you go back to start the school when?

In beginning of May. . And actually like, um. I was also doing this weird kind of, I was really into masculinity at that time. I was doing this weird kind of, uh, hikes into the, into the, uh, wildness, like where it's really cold up in jyväskylä and like wanted to sleep there and like, ah, you know, . In the wild. And it was like March. And one time, one time was like minus 10 degrees was super freaking cold. But yeah. Uh,

so you were here for how long when you came here?

Just two weeks.

Two weeks, okay.

Yeah, I didn't learn much of Finnish

I mean, I guess from that no. But you had already done the three thousand words And then so you go to school and then, uh, when did you get kicked out from that school?

I think July, end of July or mid of July or something like that.

So you were there like two months?

Three months.

Three months. Oh wow. Okay. That's a quick kicking out bro.

Actually, there was another girl who was also like in my, in the same. Place. . In the same station, just us two. And she also got kicked out. . I wonder if they kind of like sorted it or if the station was just weird. I don't know. Kicked out.

And then, um, and then at which point do you decide that you're gonna come to the, the three months before you write the. medicine exam.

That was basically few weeks after that. I was deciding that.

Okay.

So then, yeah.

So when did you actually arrive then?

Uh, February, I think it was 18th of February. I think I remember the date. 18th of February two.

of, the next year.

Yeah. 20. Yeah.

Okay. Oh, so you decided that you would, you, you made the decision like almost immediately.

Yeah.

But then you actually arrived February 20?

Yeah. I first still did a, um, for like in Germany for if you wanna drive the car for rescuing people, that only takes three months. Paramedic. . That only takes three months of uh,

so you did that?

I did that, yeah. . And I didn't get kicked out.

Okay. So three months. Okay. And then February, 2020. And then you arrive and then you did the exam in, I guess, May-ish.

Um, yeah. That, but that was like, that was Corona. Like I was here just for a month before Corona started.

Right.

Which was really nasty.

I was actually on exchange at this time in Glasgow and then I got, I had to leave.

You had to leave back to Finland?

Yeah, Glasgow. And then I had to leave.

Wait, which country is Glasgow?

Scotland. Scotland. Yeah. I had to leave 'cause my ex heard on the news that that flights weren't leaving anymore from there. So I had to, I had like 48 hours to just pack up all my stuff and ah I head to London by bus.

Yeah, yeah.

From, yeah. And then fly back home.

Yeah. I think I was also kind of like trapped in, in Finland, but I also didn't want to leave. I think I took the first, yeah, . Yeah, I took the first trip.

You know, if ex had not advised me, I might have just done what the ostrich is do and just put my head in the sand and stayed there. Yeah. If it would've, would, uh, would you have had like

anybody to hang out with or?

I had, uh, some family friends who Yeah. Who lived near, nearby and there, I'm sure there was people who decided to stay and I would've found people, I, I don't know something.

I mean, it was Corona. You wouldn't have found people.

Right. That's true. That's true. I'm sure there was the online somewhere if you get little Yeah.

Online of course. Yeah.

You find, uh, yeah, . Yeah. So February, 2020. And then, and then when you wrote the med medicine exam in,

I think it was, uh, at some point it wasn't some, at some point in May I don't remember the date. I think 13th or so,

May, 2020. You wrote the med exams. And already at that point then you had already got the B1. You said

I got my B, my like B1 real Certificate. On something 1st of June or something like that. . I think that the exam was actually even after the med exam. . But it was more or less then. Yeah.

Okay. . Okay. Right. So now that I have the timeline for this . I just wanna go through, 'cause this is the whole lessons of this, that what were the things that you were doing in those times? Yeah. To kind of keep you, get you towards the, the, this is so a little different from the format of how I usually do it, but I love how there's like a very interesting timeline that you have.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So,

just to let you know, the most important part is actually gonna be February to March. That is gonna be the one of the most important

Of the 2020.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Okay. But so initially, before you even come to Finland, you take that 3000 word book and then you successfully managed to kind of memorize ish about half of it.

Mm-hmm.

So like what you need

to know about when you do it the way I did it with just like having this book. . And. Um, is, is that you will, like many people say that if you have a, if you just use it with a vocabulary book that you can, that's a bad way to learn vocabulary because then you make them kind of like you, you are sticking to the order of the words. . And I think actually that, that's not really true. . Dual, for example, duolingo is also based on that.

Right.

Um, that you like always get them in a different order, you know? And I think that's actually not, not even true. Like I actually found it kind of useful in a certain way to

Duolingo.

No, no, no. I never used Duolingo. No, no. Yeah. I think it, yeah, it doesn't work because it's on the screen. So first of all, not screen, in my opinion . Books because you have this haptic thing, you have something, everything which, um, gives you extra kind of connections. Synaptic connections. . Makes it easier to memorize something, so, . Also, like I noticed, and I have been over the past half year, been reading a lot of stuff in the internet and not even books in the internet and not just like with real books. . And you just notice the difference that if you have a real book, especially if you can write in it. . You just remember remembering everything so much better. . Just from even subconsciously the touch of the, of the pages and stuff like that. And also this thing of, that you, you develop a kind of geometrical sense of what is written in the book. . First and then what comes later. . Well, when you just have things which you scroll, like it looks all the same, like you don't have this thing like, okay, most of the pages are on the left side, most of the pages are on the right side, where you're like kind of, okay, this is in that part of the book. You just have like a screen and then everything looks the same. . So, um, so that's, that was one thing where I noticed that when I was learning with this book. Uh, even though I remembered like one word and then I remembered the, the one after that, kind of like, it was for me, one, one line of, of words stand being related to each other even though they shouldn't be. . . It was kind of helping me to another situations also, like every time I remember the same, like reinforce those kind of structures.

Right, right. Okay. Okay. My theory on that one is like the, the more anything you do that creates some kind of friction that runs the process through your brain. . Like just forcefully runs the process through your brain gets you closer to that thing. . So if you write whatever, if you are looking at the thing and you're writing some stuff down, it causes, like, it's kind of running your brain through the process. . And that's, all of those kind of little things matter or help out.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And if I like hear a word and then I remember another word because I hear the word. . It's great. Right. So

yeah. Yeah, so then that's the first, the January part with the book. And then when you arrived here, you said you were only here for two weeks, so that . You really,

I, I mean I tried a lot. I tried to, I was trying to talk with some, uh, drunk person in a bar that was funny, but didn't really work. I didn't understand it.

Like a, like a one time occasion.

Yeah. Like from time to time I was trying it, but it just. I don't remember so much. Also, to be honest, how much it really, like how much I learned, I tried to watch a movie . But I didn't really understand anything of the movie.

Okay. Yeah. Because, um, one of the guests that I interviewed, he had a thing where he would go to bars and talk to drunk, finnish people in finnish. . And that was actually a very good one.

I actually did that in Norway, like I learned later. learned Norwegian. . But that works much better. Worked much better because Norwegian is so similar to German. . So that it's like, you kind of like just, you start where you are, you're not even when you're learning, like your starting point is just much higher.

Right, right, right. So, and, and where you just see words and you'll know what they mean without Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. That's, yeah. That's just always such a sheet cheat code when you're doing it. . And then, uh, you say in May, 2019 you, yeah. So you are in school and then you Yeah. July. So, okay, so March, 2019, you go back, then you start school. Then July, 2019 you finished that, you paramedics, I

think actually one thing I was, I still want to throw in just as a funny thing when we already want to go through finnish language. . Uh, the thing I already noticed when I got went there in the two weeks was that it's so funny that I noticed that in Finnish when you, when you do those sentences . You always have the propositions on the end of the word. Right? . You never say like at the table you say like "pöydällä", . Or like on the table. , So I already noticed that the, my brain kind of had to switch the way how it's processing language in general. Like, it, it's, it is not only about the words and about about like knowing the words of the grammar. It's also about knowing when your brain will pick out certain information from the sentence. And I also noticed that. Actually we are all the time anticipating what the other person is going to say. . And I really, really noticed that when I, when I was like trying to learn, finnish during those two weeks, because I noticed afterwards, like sometimes when I heard a sentence, I actually knew all the words, but I just couldn't react to it because my brain was just so slow and I couldn't anticipate what the person was saying. Partly because also I didn't know when are, for example, the propositions coming and then I was like expecting it, say somebody saying like, on the table where the proposition is coming before the word. And then it's like "pöydällä", and then I, this the word ""pöytä" already like passed by and then I was afterwards like, oh, but where was the preposition?

Right, right, right.

So like all this

table on.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So all those kind of like, you don't think about it when you, . When you just think about learning a language. But all that kind of stuff actually had a really, really big impact on, or I noticed that my brain really needed to adjust for, for that.

Right. Okay. Okay. That's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So then February, 2020, you come back to Finland to prep for the med school exams. As part of your prep for the med school exams.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then in May, 2020 you write the exams. And then you said in June you wrote the certification exam for the finnish as well and you, it was there, you realized that you are at B1 at that point?

No, I think, I think I got the certificate at beginning of June and I wrote it at end of May. . But I'm, I don't remember. I could look it up, but doesn't really,

it's not that significant. But they do, anyways, this is about a three month period,

but , it was a, an exam where you can write B2 and B1 in the same, and then when you get the results, it's going to show you either which level you are. . And I got B2 for reading, but b1 for all the other levels.

Is it Yki, the Yki test.

Yeah.

Yeah, right okay Yeah. , So what did you do in that February to May period to kind of prep for this? Because that's a very, 'cause up until this point, you've only really learned finnish for like a. Or Yeah, a year and a half.

Yeah. Yeah. 15 months or so. Yeah.

And, and of the 15 months, you've spent like 12 of that, not in Finland.

Yeah. Yeah.

So,

and one and a half during Corona.

So what kind of drugs were you on? Like how were you

Actually, that is actually funny because I had this tiny, I had this tiny, this is actually, dude, I was so weird at the time, man. I should, I should become weird again. This

is, you shouldn't or should be.

I should. It was really . Like, I mean, I, I, there was some things about this this times, which was really, really funny and really fun also. And really like, just insane. . I should, I should get a little bit more crazy again. Um, anyway, I had this like little langenscheidt, langenscheidt is a, is a brand in German who , they publish how do you call it? Dictionaries. . And they have like this tiny ones which you can put in your pocket. . . And at some point. I bought, like when I, one was through with the first one, I bought this little langenscheidt, and I was like, I'm just gonna learn all the words in this one.

This is definitely the thing you said, like, yeah, young men overestimate their abilities.

No, I, I managed to do it.

You did it!. Oh my god.

I always wrote the things down. It became this kind of meditation for me, and at some point I kind of got addicted to it. Yeah. And when I was done, I did it with the Italian one.

You did Italian as well?

Yeah. I never, I never learned all of those. Oh, okay. But I, I, I wrote all of those down down because I was like kind of addicted to all this writing down, because it's kind of, you get, you get really in the mode, you get like, kind of the .

Yeah. And, and, and, and moving your body and doing the thing. Also kind of, again, it's one of those like run your brain through the process kind of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Writing those down was, was, was such, most of the, most of the part I think was actually writing the words down. . I also still, afterwards had to, to learn a lot of them. . But, um, yeah, I don't even know why, but for some reason, like after I wrote them down, I could learn them better than just in the dictionary.

It's,

I,

I feel like, 'cause. The process of just sitting and learning something. It's, it kind of, it's like one in one ear out the other very often. . But if you force yourself to write it, it's, it's like you have to process it on different level. . And then going forward, once it's been kind of stamped in your head, in your head one time, you can kind of, it's easier to replicate it. . Easier to replicate and then,

yeah. I didn't know. Notice the same thing with my studies. If I, especially if I have to write something about the thing Yeah. I'm reading, then it's, then it's like, oh . I really need to actually understand what I'm like reading here. Not just like, think I understand.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's why I have this notebook nowadays. I notice myself, I'm doing a lot of different things, including this podcast. Yeah. And I noticed my brain just, things just floating in my brain all the time. But okay. So then what exactly prompted you? Because. We've kind of heard a bit of the story, but what exactly prompted you to like, okay, I want to learn Finnish?

I don't know, it somehow had to do with this kind of like, go far away, do something difficult, prove your masculinity thing. . I don't exactly recall everything. . A lot of it was like just proving my own intelligence or my own ego or something. ah. I cannot exactly define it anymore because it's been, it's already so long, long way. . Or something like that. Lot like there was this one men's coach whom where I read this book from and he was at that time, like the book was very influencing me at that time, and that had something to do with this masculinity thought, but I don't know.

Well, do you remember what the name of book was?

Of the book. Of course, yes. Nowadays I'm like grown out of it a little bit, but it's called, so Living Masculinity. I think nowadays it's also translated into different languages. . Yeah. But it in a long time has only been in German, but nowadays it's . Yeah. Yeah. It's a great book.

Yeah. I'll, I'll message you about what the name is 'cause it's in German, the name, so I,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure.

Yeah. , Yeah. , So walk me a bit through your like, learning journey. I mean, we've gone through a, a part of this, but like, at least from the angle of what things worked and what things didn't, I think like some

things I could have definitely done better afterwards. I also noticed that definitely makes a difference, uh, on how, like, on which language you learn how you should approach something. . So with Finnish, what worked very well where I'm not, where I was afterwards always thinking, okay. Was this really the best one was to learn first the grammar really, really precisely. . And then apply it together with the words like, really this kind of stupid German, we do it now step by step way of approach, worked really well with Finnish because Finnish has such a complicated grammar and so different from, from indo Germanic and other languages that

you're saying it worked to.

Yeah.

It to learn the grammar Well first

Yeah. But I wonder, yeah. It worked very well. . But I wonder if there would've been other ways to like also learn it somehow more efficiently. I don't know. Sometimes felt like I could've been more efficient somehow by, by maybe subjecting myself more to like, watching more movies in finnish or, or, uh, trying harder to really talk to people. But on the other side, I actually, I really did that a lot. So let,

lemme push it back a little on this one. . Because, . You did start with the vocabulary thing, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But

so, so at the point when you, so at the point when you started focusing on the grammar, had you already gone through this grammar, this vocabulary book?

, For the first one, not the, not the small one, not that one.

Uh, yeah. The, the 3000 Word book.

Yeah. Yeah. Through that one. I had

you already gone through. Okay.

I think that was also important first. First

very,

yeah. First do 2000 words of like just the

language

, vocabulary . . Before you start grammar, that's like, it's stupid to start in. You also don't learn the grammar if you like, if you need to do some kind of different endings on words, which you don't even know. That's

right. Right. It's, yeah. No. Right. It's like cooking with, with ingredients that have not been grown yet Yeah. Just, okay. Yeah. So then in that, yeah, then it makes sense to, like, you have a base of words already. Then you add grammar to it. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And also, also think, uh,

You want to have a lot of, a lot of words. ,. Like when I was in Italy, there was somebody saying, you know, for the basic things, you just need 1,200 words. But I think that is just like false. Like you need a bunch of words if you want to enjoy speaking the language. . And I think it's about enjoying speaking the language, not about I'm able to order a cookie that's, that's stupid. Like, I want to have a discussion. I, I want to have a romantic thing with a girl maybe, and like talk,

for example,

talk about my feelings. I want to discuss with somebody about politics. Like, for that you need at least four, three, 4,000 words, probably more.

Right, right. That's, yeah, that's a very fair point that you Yeah. Yeah. There's a thing that I was just on my tongue, but then I kind of, kind of,

we were talking about grammars.

Yeah. So what, uh, yeah, so the things that work in things that didn't, so you said that focusing on the grammar , at, at a good time. I guess also works. So, and then also another thing I guess is that a lot of work at the beginning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then is there anything else that jumps to mind that like, okay, this is also really important to learn to do

well? So there's a lot of things actually that are important. I don't think I remember all of them right now, but while we go through it,

, and we can even write a blog about it later,

yeah. So, so one thing which I, now that I think about it, which I really liked about doing, going through the grammar in finnish, was that there's no exceptions in Finnish. So once I knew the grammar and I knew it really well, I knew I don't have to worry about like that some words or somehow different or whatever. . And for that, in Finnish, it's you have these things that, like certain words, like the endings are the same, but certain words are, uh, "taipu" or what is that?

Conjugate,

conjugating or, or, uh, subjugate or. No, whatever conjugating with a verb. It's conjugated with a subject, something , different but are like do changing their pre endings kind of a little bit differently. For example, when you have a word which is ending on "e" . It normally gets the, the A gets doubled. . And then the consonant in, in front gets harder. So for example "Vuode", "Vuoteet".

Okay. Right, right, right.

Or like "näyte", "näyteet". . Um, and the, the, those kind of things, there's a ton, a bunch of rules about those ones. . And, but once, once you know the rules, it's like I have this box and I know it and I know it's full. Like I know there's not gonna come anything next to it and my brain is not gonna get like into this clutter, which we were talking about earlier. . Like, I, once I know it, I don't have to worry about that anymore. . And that gives you kind of this clarity to then concentrate on the next thing, which is. Talking and like using the language. Yeah. So that, I like that very much with Finnished, I don't know if it's necessary, but in that context, like I did it in a very special way. Like, like I don't think most people learn languages. And, and I like, I also never learned any of the other languages, but it, at that point it was really nice for me.

Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then what things did you feel like they did not, this, this thing does not work?

I always had this feeling that most of the things were kind of working but working less efficiently than I, than I wanted. And I'm not sure if that was actually related to me just being, you know, young and overestimating how fast it would be possible to learn something. . And or if it's something which I really did wrong, I think I did a lot of stuff which just by like stressing myself a ton instead of relaxed learning some words. . Like, you can definitely like stuff like for example, when you're tired . And you're like, you haven't slept well. . And then still trying to like punch things in your head. Mm. It can actually sometimes work if you're like really forcing yourself then. . Uh, but, but oftentimes you're just like afterwards, okay. I don't remember of this thing.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fair.

What I also was, what I also did a lot at that time, uh, was, and I think that it was actually really works really well, is like I told you about this, that, that I was a little bit unstable at that time and I was really trying to feel strong emotions at that time, and partially by concentrating myself very strongly on something like when I meditated, I also didn't do it like I nowadays learned how to do it, like by meditating in a relaxed way. But I was really like, I want to concentrate on. On, like [acts out], ', you know, and I did the same thing with, for example, the vocabularies, where I was like really kind of trying to force myself to go into this, into those words and like try to connect them with some kind of feelings and like, I cannot exactly describe it, how, how I mean it, but, but basically just concentrate myself so strongly on certain words until I felt something related to those words. . Takes a lot of power or like energy, but it in a certain way it works.

Concentrating on words until you feel something.

So like, hmm. If you now think, like if you, for example, think about some kind of person or whatever, and then you just feel the emotions you have in your body, like . It, it, it like will activate some kind of little, tiny, subtle, subtle feelings. Anything you think basically. . Right. . So anything, any thought which comes into your head will activate some little kind. , feeling. And then, um, that of course also works with the words like, which I was reading in the dictionary. So if I like, have read about the word, I don't know, uh, river, then I can have this picture or this, this like tiny, tiny, subtle feeling about, I don't know, nature and, and being free and, and being like something about like, I think at that time is what it was important for me to like this kind of eternity of nature, which I had often when, when words related to nature were coming up. And then I like really tried to focus on this feeling and, and like make it grow some and, and, and like this kind of thing. And then like, uh, feel it where it was in my body or stuff like that. . Uh, you know, that takes a ton of power to do that, like a ton of energy and oftentimes it just hmm. Feels like kind of not worth it. But I think that was one of the ways how I learned some words maybe a little bit more quickly.

Okay, so this,

maybe it was also just crazy. I don't know.

So yeah, so there's some kind of sense based kind of like a feeling the word, you know? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's, that's the first I've heard of that one. But that's makes, it makes sense when you explain it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. , Well, okay, we kind already touched on this, but what resources you used?

, Johannes Dellert University in Tübingen and he has this perfect slides about the finnish grammar that was like basically complete finnish grammar.

Can you repeat that?

But it's in, it is in German, so only German people who are doing it, ah, who are from Germany are gonna find it useful.

Is it, is it a YouTuber called Johannes?

No, it is a, it is a professor.

Professor.

. He just did like some kind, he just taught finnish at some university. and had this slides about finnish Grammar.

Johannes what?

Dellert, . Is his name okay. Um, I can give you the link, then you can put it in the

That would be great

description. . For the German, for the German listeners, but

yeah, Johannes de. Okay. And is this a polyglot this Johannes person?

I,

he definitely speaks finnish, but otherwise I don't know.

. So resources that you use, if we go through them, then it's like the word book, the dictionary. , What else? Going through that, which is then of course this. . This Johannes Dellert. . Rules of finnish. And then you said, uh, well, meditation, I guess.

Yeah. But that's, that's of course not a resource in the term of, uh

Right. Fair. Fair.

Yeah. And I also don't think the way I did meditation at that time was really maybe useful. I mean, in that meditation on the words. Yeah, yeah, . But the other kind of meditation I did at that time wasn't, because then I also focused like super strongly on something different, you know? Yeah. And then of course, like the meditation works well when you do this kind of more softer meditation where you maybe scan your body and then at the same time you also, like process things from your life. And then of course, also the words are gonna come up in your mind. . But if meditation is always like, at that time, it was something which you perform. . Where you like, sit down and knock. Now I need to like feel my thumbs and feel whatever. And it's against some input you put in your head, and it's not something where you give your head time to process something. . So that, like for the guys who like meditation, watch out how you do. So,

So what else did, and you said writing. Writing was, I would say I would consider writing a resource, I guess.

Yeah. I You mean like writing the words from the vocabulary? Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. That is, that is actually quite important to kind of get it out of this book into your hands in a certain sense. Right.

And then into that motion as well. . Okay. And what other resources have you, you use

that we have not touched on? Actually, now that you've said it, there is a ton coming to mind. So first of all, like now we get to the stage in February . Where or on the timeline where there's actually something really important. When I came to Finland, I booked an Airbnb at a finnish, uh, finnish family. . So that was really, for the first step was really useful.

That's

a massive cheat code right there.

Mm.

Yeah. Uh, it turned out like it was weird. It was a dysfunctional family. I, I'm talking a lot about weird stuff today. I'm very sorry, but, but dude, like the, what was it? At some point, maybe it wasn't. Yeah. Okay. It was actually really dysfunctional. The mother, the mother was using somebody else for getting money. Who, who liked her was attracted to her, the girl. Okay. Maybe I shouldn't say this on the internet threw a tantrum because she didn't get Snapchat, whatever. Anyway, but still I learned a ton of finnish from it. Yeah. And they also nice, like nothing. Yeah. Still they were also really nice. And , yeah, that was, that was before Corona. And then like the day I had had it actually booked in a way that I don't even remember why. , But the first season where I was like in the family was just one month. And then after that I moved to the, to the woods., Kind of, yeah. Kind of to the woods. , into a bigger house, which was farther away from the city. . I don't remember why anymore, but I was really lucky because it was basically the day that Corona began when I moved to the woods.

Oh, okay.

So that was really like, kind of jackpot, I think. . I don't know how it would've worked if I would've still been in the family,

but How long were you with the family?

One month. One month. Okay. And during that time, so just when I arrived in Finland, I had already already learned from the time before where I was doing like, uh, Stu while I was studying Finland, while I was waiting for the nursing thing. . That like, choirs are a great place to get to know people and like, so yeah. So when I hit, when I came to Helsinki, basically the first thing I did was check out all the choirs. Which I could find. . And then I, I think I was, at the time, I was like, when it started, I was trying to be in four choirs at the same time.

Four choirs?,

Four choirs at the,

four choirs.

. Uh, because I didn't have anything else to do Of course, except for learning and Finnish. . And at the end, I, I only stayed, like, for long term, I only stayed in two. Uh, then I, like, during that time before Corona started, I tried to stay in three. . But yeah, one of them is still like, uh, kind of like was for a long time. My, my most, like my base circle based friendship circle While I was here. Also later, like we just today, we sang over there in, in also trying to recruit tenors and basses. So in case somebody is a tenor or a bass realized Viipurilais osakunnan laulajat

I might personally be interested. . For bass, I was once in a choir, not because I can sing, but because I was enthusiastic.

Okay, so, but then you learn how to sing

something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. . I was bass. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially as a man.

Well, yeah. Yeah. This was back in, uh, boarding school, high school.

Mm, okay.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

But yeah, please go. So choirs.

Yeah, so that, that choir is actually, was actually, and that's also why I'm mentioning it.

Yeah.

Wasn't only important for me like getting through the Corona time, like being in the woods with almost nobody for two months. , There was like one old lady living in the house, and sometimes the, like the son came over, but very rarely, very, very rarely. And it wasn't, but also the choir was, uh, basically pushing me super hard to learn to finnish. Like, it was really cool. . There was one person who, who every, like, because I also like tried all from the start, I was like, I don't know, I only wanna talk finnish. I don't wanna talk English. And then there was like one person who hopped onto that. Super strongly. So anybody, anytime he was like next to me and somebody else started like explaining things in English, he was like, no, no, no, no, no. You say it in finnish. So, yeah. Yeah.

Well that's, yeah, it's always nice, like, it's like, um, having a, something of an accountability buddy, but in a different kind of way that's so that it is like having somebody stand over you and making sure you do the thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And every now and then you, you need that, you know?

A hundred percent. Yeah. . . So that, that was really useful. And uh, I also, during that time, every time I heard a word, which I don't understand, . I was writing it down and then afterwards, like asking the people, especially in the choir, basically only in the choir, ? Hey, what does this mean? And that was also really, really useful. Basically. That was like kind of cleaning up the rests of the things, which I still didn't know, because there's a ton of words which don't, which aren't in the dictionary, which are like kind of this very special words in a certain sense. . Which you just know don't pick up otherwise. . And I mean, you learn at some point. You learn them anyway if you're far enough, but still

Well, and yeah, I get, yeah, some words just don't show up in the dictionary. And I, what my process involved, what I would write, I would write words down and then I would try get the English translation or like a dictionary, finnish dictionary, uh, meaning of it. If it was simple enough for me to understand, then I, I'll use directly the finnish dictionary, meaning, and then I would find example sentences from this website called "glosbe.com"

Oh, I don't know that.

Yeah, it's a, they have a, like, they have a stack of like movie subtitles. , EU law texts .

, Oh, maybe I actually do know it. I'm not sure.

And then also like religious text as well. So if you, if you put a word in it in there and then it shows up in, let's say some movie subtitle or some religious text or something . Then it gives you like a whole bunch of those. . And then I will pick which sentence like is not overly complicated. . Then I'll put it in my Excel sheet. Then I would later on transfer them into Quizlets to memorize later.

Oh wow. Okay.

Yeah.

Wow.

that was my ,

that sounds like a ton of work.

It was too way too much work. , And you know, the thing you're talking about writing things down.

Yeah. Yeah.

This was my equivalent of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In hindsight, when I think about it, because this was me physically doing work to make this happen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hundred percent.

So it, yeah. So it forces that the text to really pass through your brain . As you do the work to make this happen. . And then 'cause if, if I had had ChatGPT just generate sentences for me. It would probably be a whole lot different where I would actually only be memorizing.

Yeah.

Instead of doing some work with the text, some physical work with the text.

Actually ChatGPT works well with the Norwegian for example, for me. . But then when you have a conversation with it, . You just like start talking with it. Then it's kind of nice because you then have to also like start using the words, which you kind of already know a little bit because they're just so similar. But if with finnish it would've never worked. . 'because I think, I think what you already kind of almost said, like you, you meant it but you didn't say this. So out loud is like this kind of thing that you need to force yourself or you this thing that um, the more energy you put in it . The better something stays, I think.

Right. The more useful energy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because they be, you can, you can spend a lot of time on like Duolingo actually, if you spend like two hours every day on Duolingo, I think it would then be useful.

Yeah. And also I, I mean cognitive energy, I don't mean by just time. I mean like when you, but when you used Duolingo and you, you really focus on the freaking words. . And you are really like, I wanna learn these words. I think it would work with one course.

. But most people just do the 10 minute thing and then so it's,

yeah. Yeah.

It feels very Stop start, stop, start, stop, start. And you feel like you're doing something 'cause you have a streak going on.

But yeah. If it's 10 minutes Yeah. Guys, hey come. Yeah. If anybody does less than half an hour a day,

it's not,

it's, it's not gonna work. You, it is better. It's better to do between half an hour and one hour a day for half a year than 10 minutes or so for five years.

I would say even more than a half hour. Do at least an hour.

I think half an hour. Yeah. Probably more than half an hour, but, but half an hour, like I think below half an hour is not gonna bring you anything. Anything. . Yeah. And but you also don't need to, like, nobody needs to do four hours a day. . Like, like,

but if you can, you should,

I thought this podcast is for making people more comfortable. Like, but like, you can do it. You know?

You can, you

can. And then some people, some people can do four hours, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

But yeah,

I definitely did four hours at some point when I, when I was doing the,

I I, I wouldn't be surprised. 'cause Yeah. You sound like you wanted to do a lot of hard things and Yeah, yeah,

yeah,

. Um, yeah, I think

I

would only do,

but very rarely also, like, I don't think that the four hour sessions was, were the ones were, which were the most important right. One to two hour sessions, which I did for a long time. Often that was the thing, which,

yeah, I think for me, the whole dictionary, um. Excel to quiz lines process.

Mm-hmm.

Those took like a long time. . Those were like multiple hour things that I would do

Per, per day.

Yeah. Not, not like every day, but when I would sit down to do them. . I would do them for a long time. .

Because

for some weird reason it was very hard to find examples like , to go through the process. . It was like, it takes a lot of steps to find the suitable sentence. 'cause the sentence that I'm example sentence I'm using has to be something that I understand. Otherwise it's counterproductive

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

So I have to find sentence that I understand. I have to translate it, I have to check multiple dictionaries for, uh, a definition that is like simple enough for me to understand. . And yeah. So

that has to mean that while you were checking the ones which you didn't understand, you were probably also doing those ones learning a lot.

That's the, yeah, that's the whole thing about that.

'cause otherwise it would've been a waste of time. But probably you learned also doing those ones a lot.

That's why I meant like there was a whole difference between that. If I had just asked ChatGPT to generate for me, . Then I wouldn't have gone through that. Those kind of things. Yeah. But, um,

yeah, I hate HGPT even though it's a really good tech, really good technology. But

yeah. What observations have you made about other people learning Finnish?

That's a really good question.

Thank you. So I wrote it myself.

Wow.

I'm a big boy now.

No ChatGPT Uh, yeah, no. Uh, so one thing I think the biggest mistake which people make, especially that especially women have a problem with this, is that they don't go over the awkwardness of talking to people. Oh. Uh, I think men probably have more problems with the laziness than women, but, uh, for, for a lot of women, it's, they under, they understand a lot, but then they never talk because they're too shy and they don't want to, they don't wanna get in the situation where it's, where they have to be the. Like weird guy who doesn't know how to speak. Oh, that was really like, that was by the way, in the choir. . That was also for me, like something personal, which was really, really heartfelt that I could just be the, I don't know, weird special guy who was like enthusiastic about Finnish language and . And I don't know, lying on the ground and in the back, back rows of the choir, like, and reading my book when, while we were having a break. . It was like, um, that was like on a weekend where it was, it was a little bit different than just like choir session, but . So like this kind of things were just like, I don't know, study randomly and stuff like that. So this situation of you going into the awkward, awkward places of, of also like sustaining the silence while you don't remember a word. . This, that can feel really uncomfortable.

That's something I struggle with.

Yeah.

Just sustaining silence in general. It is something that I struggle with,

especially when the other people are waiting for you to remember a word. . So, so that's one big, big, big thing. . The other thing is, and both are related to just like go over certain steps of uncomfortability.

Mm.

Uh, which are with finnish crucial. Uh, because the second thing is that in Finnish you need a lot of work to be even able to talk. You need to first know the grammar and a ton of words to be even able to start. Because like in, in Italian or I don't know, Norwegian, you can just like use some words and then put them in a line and then people will somehow understand you, but that doesn't work in finnish because they need the endings. And if they don't have the endings, it's just, they're just like that.

Yeah. Right.

And so that means that like in order to be even able to talk, you first need to do a ton of work and then people are at that point already like, oh, this is not. fun And then when you, and then the next step is to then to even like in your own head, assemble those things like, okay, word and then I need to put the word in another shape and it takes a lot of processing power, and then I need to put it in a, in a sentence. So those are things which are like a little bit uncomfortable and where people get demotivated because the fun with finnish language starts much later. There is a ton of fun. There's a real ton of fun when you learn the language, but , but it, like the beginning is not, for most people, not fun

things. Just start moving smoothly. When you, when you get, when you cross a certain threshold of learning, having to learn, finnish, it's just like, oh wow. It's night and day,

yeah. Yeah. And it's also like, it's just amazing the way how, how the Finnish language like is different from all other languages and that you like, you get really into this kind of different world. For me, it was really that I kind of dived into a whole different world, which was like opening up itself for me.

So what other observations have you learned about, have you, do you have of other people learning other than,

, So like the other observations, like most the mistakes which most people make, were not going over certain discomfortabilities so like the, the shyness/awkwardness of people waiting for you to remember words . Or something about like not wanting to learn the grammar. . Mm. I think the most basic mistake is simply to not start. And to be like, oh, this is impossible. Finnish has this, this myth about being an impossible language to learn. . And especially if you know that you're gonna like, stay here for, for work and also for like living here. . I'm getting annoyed of it if I meet people who don't, who don't want to learn the language. . I mean, it's your choice of yours. Of course, everybody's elder, adult. But I think if you're being in another country, then you should definitely like, try to learn the language. Yeah. And also like, if you don't start early enough, the probability that you are just gonna be at some point, like, ah, whatever I get by by English. . Is very high. Right. So if you start directly at the beginning, that's, that's a very good question.

It's like That's your lifestyle. That's it.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And also you, you waste the least time. You directly since from the start, you will, like, at some point you have to do the work. . And the, the earlier you do the work. The more time you have to perfection your

and to enjoy life.

Yeah. And to enjoy it. Yeah, exactly.

And my, my, the last person I interviewed Hamed, his was very interesting. He basically, it was just actually quite similar to yours. It was more of just a lifestyle, just like, yeah, actually, yeah. Very similar. 'cause you didn't, you were not like, I went to a course. You didn't really go to any finnish.

No, I didn't go to any course actually.

Yeah. So he was just like, lifestyle and pretty much all of his friends that he made when he came as a refugee and was in Oulu. . And they were all speaking Finnish and, yeah. . So just more of a lifestyle, just kind of, and then,

yeah. Yeah. I want to, I want to dive into the finnish culture. I, I also wanted to like know how my, how my view of the world is gonna gonna change when I really go into like getting to know finnish people on a, like really finnish level, you know? Right, right. Yeah. I don't, yeah. I think those are the main mistakes, which most people are. I mean, observations. I, I, I haven't, if, if I meet somebody who does something really well, I rarely actually talk about them, like, about how they have their techniques. 'cause for me it's just like, ah, I, I got here. I don't need any like, hints on it. It's just like something fun, which we have in common. But , we,

yeah, we don't, I don't think I usually talk about, about it with people until, the reason for this was like a lot of people who are trying to learn or Yeah, were asking me. And then, and then after they started asking me, and then this idea started coming to mind, that's when I started asking people, like, so how did they go about it? That's when you started becoming, yeah. But, uh, okay. , Are there like any kind of surprising or unconventional things. You did that? Well, pretty much all of it. That was to think of. And everything is you did was like weird. . The 3000 word book before you even arrived to Finland. . And yeah. But apart from the ones that you have mentioned, what other weird things did you, odd things that you do?

There was other things, other, other,

beyond the things you've already talked about.

. I think there was some maybe oh, I actually did a psychotherapy in finnish.

Elaborate please.

Uh, so I'm not gonna go too much into like, into the situations. I'm not gonna put this on the internet.

Oh yeah, no.

, But like there was something, some little complicated situation in my choir, which was at that point like with a friend in the choir, which was at that point, like the choir was my most. , How do you say it? Like the, the "Tukipiiri", what is that, like the, the thing which So the most important support system . In, in Finland. . And then at some point there was some social situation where, which made it not as safe for me, like to feel as safe as, as it had been before. . And, uh, I still, I, I, at that time, I still had this thing of like, wanting to prove myself super much. , That was also part of the reason why I went to psychotherapy. 'cause like, it made it in a certain sense, it made it impossible. It also blocked myself from actually being productive. . And it also made it impossible to just relax and enjoy something and just like, meet people. And while at the same time I was, I really like, wanted to meet people and just like, I don't know, not perform all the time and .

Like is this something you've gotten over?

Yeah, mostly I, I still have it, but I,

we, we need to talk.

Yeah.

Because I'm, I'm still, I still got that.

Yeah. I think, I think nowadays I'm a little bit in the other way. I have done it, iv'e gotten a bit lazy over the last year, and now I'm back into this. I then started, uh, uh, psychotherapy and apart from, it just would've, it would've been just exhausting to find somebody doing it in German, like to just find somebody and then like watching if we match. I actually didn't even want to, I wanted to do it in finnish. . Because I was interested in the, in the idea of, okay, what would happen if I learn how to connect emotions with finnish language? . Because from the moment when I started learning finnish I, or to put it another way actually this, this, I think this trail of thought is really, really interesting. So when I was about like 15, 16, I was like, not too, not too stable. . I read this thing on the internet that if you have a depression for, I don't know, longer than six months, I think it was said, or longer than a year, then it's gonna be permanent. And of course that like, that's like. Not true, but you read like stupid stuff on the internet. And then that was, at that time for me, really, really, really scary. ? Because I had, like, I, I mean, I wasn't, I was like 15, so everybody has a kind of depression at that age, or like a lot of people. But, but anyway, uh, I had it quite roughly at that time and, and then, uh, I had this thought, okay, maybe it will never, I will never be able to get over it. And that was really scary. So from that point, I developed this thing like, okay, no, but I wanna prove that it's that this is wrong and I want to see if it's actually possible to restructure your brain on a very deep level. . That's also where some of these emotion, emotion, like deep concentrating onto emotions, things comes from. . In the sense of that, I, I wanted to like restructure the very like, childish part of my brain. . Like the, the, the, the deep ground structures and like dive into those nowadays. I know from. Just experience that if you do that all the time, that you might also structure them in the wrong way if you don't do it in a safe way. But it's definitely possible.

Right.

And , I also read for example, that it's not possible to learn any language the same way how you know, your mother tongue. Like to feel it the same . The same way how you feel about your mother tongue. . And that's why I wanted to learn the Finnish language. Like I wanted to also prove that thing wrong. Wrong. I wanted to know what happens if I really like focus on the emotions while I feel a word. . That's also related to why I focus on the things like how I felt it while I was reading those things, those words. Because I wanted to know what happens if I try to ingrain the words really deep. . I don't know if that actually like really worked or it was just some kind of self experiment, but that was the reason why I wanted to also start psychotherapy . In finnish. . Because then I like learned to talk about emotion, emotions in finnish and, . Yeah. It was really, really great. Uh, I, not a single time regretted that I did it in finnish.

Okay. And do you feel like, so one it helped with the finnish, but did you feel like the, the, the psychotherapy itself was you, you were able to make use of it even . Because there was words. Words. You were able to make use of

it, even though as a psychotherapy? Of course.

Yeah. . Okay.

A hundred percent. Like, uh, sometimes it was a little nasty. . Uh, or not nasty, but sometimes it was, was I was struggling a bit with expressing some things. Yeah. Mostly not, but sometimes, uh, of course you don't get into that, that easy flow, but also that gets better over time. And at some point you're like at 90, 80, 90% of what it would've been in, in like English. . And then of course, like you have , the nice part about it is that like if, for example, you have here something going on, I notice for example, if I have something emotional, some emotional, nasty stuff going on . Or like something which is bothering me in my mind and it's about a person who's finnish, then I will those discussions with you then repeat and repeat and repeat in your own head. They will be in Finnish . In that sense, in that time. . If, if it's somebody who is Finnish. . Okay. And if it's somebody who's German, it's normally gonna be in German. . And I think that would've, like if my psychotherapy would've been in German . Or in English, that would've in influenced the way of how I then think about those situations. Because like in the psychotherapy, of course, also think about those social situations a lot or like talk about those a lot. . So, so yeah, that, that, like from all kinds of perspectives, it was just, just a better choice and, . . I, I don't, I never regretted it. . To have done it in finnish

Yeah. This is a very interesting one I've never heard of. Well, there's several things you've said that I've never heard before, so it's quite fascinating. , I was gonna ask about like what are passive things you did, but I don't think in your case it's really relevant.

Passive things, what do you mean passive things.

So most people kind of take a normal slow approach to those who do get there. . Take this kind of normal, slow approach to it. Right. And then you set up certain things in your life that, uh, maybe the place that I go do football at there, it's all finnish.

That's the choir for me of course.

Right? But then basically these are not things that require you to switch force yourself to, to, you know, like if you go to the gym, you have to get yourself to get up and go to the gym. . These are not those kind of things where you have to actively do something. It's just. Just by you existing. It works in that way. . Those kind of, but then for you, I feel like a majority of the things were, well, actually, I think I would say majority of the things in a way were, in terms of integration, were passive because you just forced yourself into those situations and then it just kept running.

Yeah. I mean, at that time, no, I, at that time, I would say, I would say most of the things were feeling at least active. . In the sense of that I was like trying to push myself all the time. I was also counterproductive, as I said, like push myself all the time out of my comfort zone. . But yeah, like going into the country, of course, going into the meeting, all those choirs studying in finnish nowadays. . Of course. Uh, that, but at that time, no. I think that was still important. I, I was still at B2 about when I was starting to study in finnish . , But those are the passive things. . . I can also recommend reading Mika Waltari and The Hobbit in, I did those two.

The Hobbit.

Yeah. The Hobbit is like, uh, really nice. And the nature is because Finnish has a lot of nice nature words. Yeah. But I have to say, like, probably there's still a ton of words, which from The Hobbit, which I still don't know. . I read, I went through them, but I never repeated them, so.

Right. Yeah. That's, and I would imagine that, and also Lord of the rings are probably not easy to read. I don't know to begin with.

I think it's okay. But there's a ton of nature with which you just were, were just like, something about some, some like area of stones has an own word. . Like where there's like ton of, ton of like this kind of stony area. Yeah. With a lot of like single,

right. Because it just, , The, the, the books do describe a lot of like, uh. What they called terrain. Terraineous regions. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Did you read it in any other language?

No, no. I, well, from the movies, like it has to have been well described enough for the, for the scenery to be that specific as they are. That's just my, my putting two to two together kind of. Yeah. But I did try reading Lord of The Rings in English and it was like quite boring.

Yeah. I think the Hobbit is better. I never tried to read Lord of The Rings or, I, I read one chapter was just super confusing.

Right. Yeah. , Then so active things that you did, right. Did you have a steady routine? Okay. Speaking habits? Well, for sure. The places that you went to, you had to speak.

Yeah. I don't think those, my life at that time was so chaotic at the, like, most important part. Part.

Mm-hmm.

That there was no real good routine. Routine except for the thing of getting addicted to writing those words

down. Ah. When would you do that?

Just writing things? No, that was just anytime I had time, like, uh, it was random. Okay. But, um,

how random, like are we talking like when you're at home or when you're on the bus or like,

see, every time I had time and I didn't want to learn anything else, I was doing it.

Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Were you one of those bus people who just like

Yeah.

You do? Okay. Yeah,

I'm still,

yeah, I, I try to be, it doesn't always come, but yeah. And How have you integrated yourself into Finland? But then you went straight into an Airbnb with a Finnish family

Yeah.

And I, and I just from this conversation I bet you were speaking Finnish.

I tried, like actually at that time I wasn't always, I think I was like two thirds speaking English still. During the first one month. . And then, and then from there on.

And then what about the, the, from there you moved to the house in the forest?

Yeah. That girl didn't, that old woman? . She didn't speak any well English, so,

so you just spoke finnish with her?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. . I think once a month there was like some foster, foster children coming to her. . And those ones spoke. Uh, only English only finnish of course. So they are also, yeah.

Right. But then this was this period of time when you also joined the choir as well?

Uh, yeah. , so yeah, in the choir, I never, never spoken in English.

So this is all kind of like integration as well. And then, . And then, um, after the, I mean, you're still in the choir, you said you joined four choirs.

Yeah. I'm not in all of them. I like, I'm just in the one and I also, I also dropped that I'm, I'm in that one. I'm now only for the win for the no "Joulu concert". They're like for the Christmas concert. . But I also, like, I'm currently, I'm not in one, not in even one choir.

Okay, okay.

Uh, I have been in two of them when I came back to study in Finland, uh, that was just like for the four first month where I just wanted to learn as much Finnish as possible. Just by the way, did you guys perform in the Rock Church

some years ago?

At some point, yeah, but there's a ton of choirs who do perform there.

Oh, okay. And I went to see, one lady I work with was in a choir and she mentioned something. , It had something to do with Aalto University. I think,

oh no, that's probably Dominanto Or dissononce I guess if it was an art choir.

I think so. But it's an older, it was an older lady, so,

oh, no,

no. Okay. Yeah,

no, it's a student choir.

Okay. Yeah. And, um, okay, so from your experience, what, when people don't succeed at learning finnish, what has usually been the reason?

Just that they stop at some point and that they don't do it enough per day.

Right.

Or that they don't start.

And what, what would you say, what would you say is enough per day?

Half an hour to an hour.

Okay.

But if it's half an hour, it has to be every day. If it's an hour, it's enough. If you do it like, I don't know, between three and five times per week.

Okay. And okay, now. Oh yes. What did you do that others don't?

Uh, I don't know what others do.

Fair. Fair. Well, for sure. A lot of people go on courses.

Yeah. I mean, I don't think courses are bad. . To be honest, like I did go for just taking the course to get like some credits. . I didn't actually finish, or I actually, I took one course, but it was not a, it was an online course then, but then it was already when I was at B1. Okay. Or I actually, yeah, when I was already studied. . It was year one. Um, I wrote my bachelor thesis in finnish

What? Okay.

Uh, I don't think it was really, It was use useful for like, perfection in it.

Yeah.

But it wasn't useful for learning, of course, because I had to already be like, that was, that was a year ago. So,

I mean, you already, you probably already spoke at that level.

Yeah, I was already at least, it's, at least at B2, probably C one at least.

If you're writing your bachelor's thesis, you're not a B2, you're not B2, you're definitely the C level. And I, I heard you speak well, we talked on the phone, so Yeah. And I heard you speak that's not, you're not in the Bs I'm sorry. . You're, you're pass bs.

Yeah. Yeah. It, I, I'm not sure if I would pass the C two two test, but pro I definitely,

definitely C one

Definitely. . Yeah. C but C two is also like, just insane. Sometimes some Finnish people don't pass it, so.

Yeah. There's a, there's a lady I interviewed for, um, Deborah. She, she, uh, in three years got to C two and got into law school. So she started this, this, this, uh, this September.

Did she pass the first time she tried the C two test?

I think so.

Wow.

Yeah, she, she was, she was hardcore with us, like impressive ago. But then you went, you got to B1 in 15 months and you were, and you were in the country for like, of those 15 months you were in the country for only three or four.

Yeah. And one and a half of those three or four were corona, or two and a half actually.

Right. So that's also,

I couldn't talk to many people

insanely like, like hardcore as well to do. Yeah. , So six parts to learning a language, speaking, listening, grammar, reading, writing vocabulary. So let's start with speaking.

Going out to do the uncomfortable work and speaking enthusiastically with emotions.

Okay. Listening or listening comprehension.

Watching movies maybe. And just talking a lot. Yeah.

Grammar.

Well, that was this Johannes Dellert, uh, this presentation, which I, he was the German university presentation and I just read it a thousand times.

Okay.

Nothing else,

just repetition of that.

Yeah, I think it was just repetition. Nothing. Wow. Nothing special.

Wow. Okay. So you can't really just keep it simple and then just

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That worked well. I was, I just also liked the subject, so . Then it makes it easier to remember things if you're really interested.

Right. And then what about reading comprehension?

I read this for the medicine test. Medicine exam. I read this books about biology at that time. A little bit of , uh,  Mika Waltari , . But, uh, yeah, just mostly, I think those also just come from grammar plus, plus, uh, vocabulary. You don't need much more or you actually don't need anything more.

Right, right. Yeah. And then what about writing? How did you practice writing?

I think at the beginning I didn't practice writing so much. Or did I I don't remember.

Did , weren't you, you said you were writing from the vocabulary book, you were writing things out.

Yeah. But that's not writing in the sense that you like, write whole sentences was just like writing the words?

Uh, just the words,

yeah, just the words and it, and the translations. Uh, writing. Writing in the sense of like writing something, which makes sense. . I almost didn't, I only did like notes from my vocabulary, from my biology books for the medicine test, but nothing else.

Wait, so when you were reading the biology book in finnish, you were making the notes in finnish? In finnish as well?

Mostly, yeah. Yeah.

I see, I see. Yeah. This is, this is very hardcore,

but it also takes like, of course it would also take processing time to then translate them into German. Right,

true, true.

So sometimes it's just like , nicer, yeah. Yeah.

Fair point. Yeah. And then vocabulary, how did you

Yeah, that's just like brute force. Yeah,

yeah. The book from the beginning and then the dictionary,

yeah. Yeah. That also felt like sometimes super inefficient. .

But, uh, I don't know if it really was.

Okay.

, So in the, in the story of, or, or in the timeline, we got to the part where you got to, uh, we got to February, or no June, 2020, where you said you had reached B, B1. How do you go from B1 to C level?

Okay. So big part was just like studying in finnish and continued to, to talk a lot.

When did you study?

I started, so I, what, when,

when did you study start?

, So I, I then between, after Corona, I didn't directly get my place because I didn't get B2. You need B2 to get in to university. . And I also didn't know if I wanted to stay during Corona in another country. . And then I just went to Berlin because Berlin was a partner, university of Aalto. And at that time it was also kind of clear that I didn't want to study medicine anymore. . And then I just did an erasmus the next year. . So 2021. . And by after that, Erasmus. So that was basically when I started studying here. But after that Erasmus, I just switched to the, to the finnish program and basically just continued my studies in a way. And so that studying was definitely something which. Brought me higher up. Then the other thing was taking notes about like really listening to what other people say. And then if I notice, I don't know a word, then like writing that word down . Is kind of like cleaning the gaps, you know? Or like, how do you say when you have a trousers and then you like fill in the gaps. Like some trousers, some hole in trousers, patching. '. That, that one, ? . Okay. So that, that was I think that was basically what pushed

You took better than Me, man.

I actually, that one was something. That's exactly the choir thing. Those, some people also really like to tell me weird words. ? So she, one girl. Uh, I'm actually gonna see her on Thursday. She, at some point told me this difference between Parsia and Harsia and I don't remember anymore what is the difference, but one thing is like that you patch something. . And the other thing is that you patch something, but not in a way that is like gonna be the end solution, but just like for quickly doing, quickly doing it, like, just quickly putting some thread through it so it's like holes. . And I think "Harsia" is that one, I never used it in my life, but

the fact that you remembering is , . So that's, that's,

yeah. So one thing. One thing, yeah. Find people who like to tell you weird words. . Who like, who like to, who like to teach you the language and be like,

yeah. I think one of my, yeah. For me Saara, was definitely that one of my friends. Yeah. . , And so studies we're talking about how you went from B to C. And yeah. So studies was, I guess, a big part. Mm-hmm. And then what else was, what else did you do to get to see

Mm, I think I said already, all of them studies the words Bachelor thesis was bachelor thesis then was to like, get the academic language. I have a, I have this friend who's, uh, very precise on some things, and he really liked reading my Bachelor thesis and then correcting it and putting it into the right, like right shapes. That was amazing. That was really cool.

That's really nice to have.

, He, uh, yeah. And then, so that was like for the, for more like structure and feeling on feeling of the words . On how they connect to each other. . What else? Still reading those books like. Trying to, or what you need is that you take different, different, um different subjects and you read from different subjects. Because at some point, for example, people think, oh, academic language, that's gonna be so difficult. But actually if you read something about electrical engineering, for example, it's getting really fast to the level where you're like, oh, I know all those words. Because there is not so much academic language, academic words, which are either not related to Latin. . Or, and then also like not, yeah, like not always the same. . So you need to, if you do that, then you need to reach out books and then maybe some adult novels. I don't mean porn novels, but like you to cut that out again, the,

the fact that you had to No, I'll keep that in I'll keep that in

the fact that you had to clarify that

I never read fi 50 Shades of Gray in, in Finnish. Just disclaimer. No, I meant, I meant I was more referring to the, Mika Waltari Thing.

Right.

I guess. I guess you could also watch some, but I don't think it's gonna teach you too much.

No, no. , Okay. Okay. So that's how you went from the B to C, but I'm, I'm guessing, of course, you did the same, a lot of you were still doing some of the same things you did to get from zero to B as well.

Yeah, I wasn't that, I wasn't as much into this like, I need to focus now thingy. . I hadn't at that time, I had already calmed down a little bit. Uh, . So, so yeah, I had, I had, I noticed some patterns there and managed to like. Get a little bit calmer approach into those things, so.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. , Tell me about like, the times that you found it most difficult to continue chasing the goal.

Uh, there wasn't no, like the, there wasn't, there wasn't anything like where I was oh no, I'm gonna stop. . Maybe a little bit at the beginning, like, is this useful? Okay. But I was just like, so I don't know, so weirdly passionate about it, like, so like, oh, but this is cool, ? That is a very super useless, but this is so cool.

Yeah, that's definitely very niche. Yeah. Okay. And , but what, in regardless then, what words of encouragement do you have for people who are trying to learn this?

So first of all, the thing that is definitely possible and that it's a hundred percent worth it, that is the most important. And then also. It's not necessary to like bust yourself up. It's the only thing what is necessary is, or it is also not necessary to do it for a super long time. You can actually do it in a short time. You can learn to a good level in half a year. I have a friend who did that. . And I would've done it if I would've been in Finland and not like just reading in books. . So it's not like something where, where you're like starting and then at some point in your future you're gonna manage it. If you, if you really want it, you can do it in half a year. And from that point on start to enjoying it still continuing. Of course, like in half year you're not gonna get both B1 and, but , it's definitely worth it. And, uh, it is definitely possible to get it to a level where it's like fun fast, you, the only thing which you need to do is, is to go into the uncomfortable areas in a clever way. And I think we already in this episode. Told you the, the situations in which you need to go, which are the important uncomfortable situations.

Yeah. Yeah. What, how has your life become, I mean, okay, this is, I don't know how you feel about this one, but then how has your life become better now that you know, you live in Finland? 'cause most of my guests, they started not speaking Finnish. . And they learned Finnish. . So this is very relevant for them. I don't know how you feel about this. So

so im, the only one who, or like one of the, the only ones who like started directly when they came.

, I think Hammed started directly when they came. Deborah probably started directly when she came. A few people started directly when they came. But you started before you came.

Yeah. True.

You are the only one who started before you came.

True. Oh, okay.

So yeah. Or did Tseniia start before? I think maybe she had, like she said, she had one brief thing, some brief course thing, but she didn't really . Wasn't accurate. So she should basically start from zero when she arrived.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. I, by the way, I don't recommend to start more than two months before you come. . I don't think, like, I did a lot of useless work. . Or not useless, useless work, but like inefficient work. . Because, uh, it's must like, okay, no, let's put it differently. Three months is nice. . Because then you have the package, which makes it fun to start, but more is and less. It's basically that you just don't need to be in the country and more is gonna be, that you need, would need to be in the country to be more efficient. . Because at some point, like first you need to learn the vocabulary, otherwise talking to people doesn't make sense. And at some point learning more vocabulary is slower than just talking to people.

Right. Right. Okay. Alright. But would you say your life is, is, is how much better is your life here now that you learned? You, you spoke to those in finnish,

I mean, it also, there's so many different things coming to coming to it. Right. I, I did a psychotherapy that during that time, uh, I moved to the other country just as said, like, I learned first and then I moved. , Corona hit. So I don't have Corona anymore. So that was like a big thing, uh, which made my life better. I, I cannot really say, but like different definitely. , Definitely to have the life I have now, like having good friends circle and talking with most of them in Finnish and like being deep into the culture. . It's definitely like only possibly ' cause I know finnish and I don't think I would have the same amount of understanding for the Finnish culture and the same amount of. Friends or same level of friendship with those people if I wouldn't be able to speak Finnish.

Right, right, right. But yeah, this is, uh, I think this is all, all I have. . This is all I have. And, uh, yeah,

you also drained all, uh, drained all, all out of me. So there was nothing, which I could still say. I think this is good. There's nothing really important, at least. Yeah.

Well, yeah, guys thank you for tuning in to this episode and yeah,

stay motivated. , I hope you get the one or one or other inspiration.

Yeah. This has been great. This is great. Thank you.

Thank you.