013: Living Fully in Finland (Not Just Surviving) - Learning Finnish with Chloe Järvinen

, how can you learn anything? If you go in with the idea that it's impossible,

right?

How can you get motivation? How can you, keep going on something that people are telling you over and over again? Don't bother. It's hard, it's impossible. You don't need it. You won't do it anyway. No one's gonna hire you anyway even if you learn finnish. All this negativity. if you're keeping your goals way off in the future To this, into the distance of when I, I'm perfect at finnish, then of course you're gonna sit in this really dissatisfied feeling of, it's impossible. I'm not getting any closer, or it's still too far away. You have to set these like nearer goals, . Of okay, I'm gonna be able to go to the supermarket and understand what's the difference between the factory milk and the full fat milk or

welcome to this episode of How I Learned, finnish with, Ohe, today another special guest that I found in very random circumstances through a friend. And, , yeah, let's just do a quick, , rapid fire thing for the audience to get to, to know you.

Sounds good.

So, , name,

my name is Chloe and then surname is Järvinen

Lovely. , age.

I am 39.

Profession.

, I'm working in the social field as a project manager.

Do you have any nicknames?

A few usually. Chloebo

Chloebo.

Chloebo,

okay.

Is the usual one.

Wait, in which circles do you use that?

like friends, family sometimes say Chloebo back in my younger days on MySpace, everyone had a nickname. I used to be rowtro

rowtro

rowtro, it was a word I made up into response to everyone had all these funny names on my space and they like made up words and I was like, okay, I'm gonna make one up and my name's gonna be rowtro and I'm gonna be like retro slash alternative. And it's rowtro like blending together,

right? ,

But then it became like a verb for like having a wild night out was having a rowtro night out.

As in among the friend or it became a bigger

No, just among our friend group that like

okay,

okay. It became synonymous with,

yeah,

having a big party. So

Interesting, interesting.

Yeah. But I haven't been rowtro for a long time, sadly.

Haven't been. Oh, okay. I guess, you know, life changes.

Life changes, yeah.

was this in Finland or this was before?

this was back in, this is Prekids days back in the uk.

Right, right. Okay. . Gotcha, gotcha. But yeah, so how I found my guest, yeah, I was just talking to a friend about that I'm doing this, and then she suggested, oh, she said that she knows somebody from work or study and then shot you a message and I think you responded like almost immediately. Yeah.

And I saw it and then you were like, yes, let's do this. . I was very excited when I saw, so I was like, yeah, I've been looking forward to this for quite a while now. I immediately messaged you. I tried to. Engage with people when they're actually excited about the thing. . So briefly, how does Finland show up in your life story? Like, what brought you here? How long have you been in Finland, et cetera?

Okay. Well, it had been in the background for a while. I'd been interested in Finnish music for a really long time. The first record I ever bought was by Hanoi Rocks, Finnish rock band. As a teenager, I just loved the tone of finnish Music hymn, 69 Eyes. All this kind of stuff, negative, and it was always kind of in the background. It was like the soundtrack to life before I came here. I always wanted to come to the place where the music is coming from. So then I booked a holiday one year in February, 2015, just a weekend. I just wanted to go on my own, do my own thing, go to a gig, see Finland, see snow, everything that comes with it. I went to this Jonne Aaron gig. He's like, this finnish singer used to be in this rock band negative, which just reformed, which is very exciting. And, he had a gig at Sokos Presidenti by kamppi. I stayed in the hotel, went to the gig, had a great time, and, after the gig, I'd forgotten my jacket in the naulakko , that, you know, where you hand in your coat? . And I was like, oh, I better go down and grab it. Went down, ran to some people from his backup band and chatted to them and got invited to kind of hang out with them for a bit. So got talking to some other musicians that they were hanging out with and just had a nice time. And then, they mentioned that they have more gigs coming up in April and they're like, oh, you should come again in April. And like, you know, they were like, oh yeah, Jonnes playing. And then this other band was playing and I was like, you know, well, we'll see. This is my first time ever in Finland. But yeah, it would be lovely to come back. And so I came back in April, 2015. Went to on the Rocks. The bar in the center to see, this band Valo play. And that was great fun. And then while I was there at the gig, got talking to two German girls in the bathroom and they were like, oh, you should come meet our friend, he's Finnish. And that was my husband.

Oh, okay. Okay.

So from there, obviously things rapidly sped up and became, you know, finnish, became a bigger, Finland, became a bigger part in my life. And then moved here in October, 2015. Got married in December, 2015.

Oof.

Been here 10 years.

Wow.

About to have been married 10 years.

Wow.

Everything in between that 10 years.

That is incredible. Just, this is a bit off tangent, but like, did you just, I don't know, did you just feel like, okay, this is the. How did you know that this is, this is it?

It was one of those things where it felt like it should be unbelievably difficult and complicated, but it just somehow became,

yeah,

more natural and more easy than I expected to. And one thing led to another that made it possible and yeah, it just felt right. And maybe it was a bit of a rowtro thing to do to, maybe we could have thought about it a little bit more, but like, I remember, my best friend Kara back, you know, back when I was still in the uk, I was talking about like, you know, is this crazy crazy? Or is this something I should consider? And she was like, no, it is crazy. Like you are being crazy, but if you don't give it a go, you're gonna regret it. You're gonna wonder like, what if, what if? But if you do it and it doesn't work out, she was like, if it doesn't work out, just come back home. Like, wow.

Which I really appreciated from her.

Yeah.

Really good advice, but also really like brave, selfless advice. 'cause of course she wants me back with her. I wanna be with her. So it was like a really selfless advice for her to be like, you know, try this thing, it might work out for you.

Wow.

Because I was really wobbling.

Yeah. Because I don't know, I personally have this, I'm 28 now, so the question every now and then pops in my brain. And like, you know, I always keep thinking that it's gonna be so complicated and whatnot, but I guess it doesn't have to be.

Yeah. I think, everything starts from certain basic things. At the end of the day. Everything starts from connection and opportunity. Yeah.

And then it's just where you go with those things that says how things play out. But I think if like what kind of, how the situation was. My husband was just. All in. Right from the beginning. I didn't have to second guess and be like, you know, is he into me?

Right.

Is this gonna go anywhere? You know, like, he came to visit me really, really soon, soon after I came back from like, we met in April. He came in May to visit me in the uk. Like, so, and he was contacting me regularly and, yeah. Like I didn't have, there was none of that. Like games. . And like, oh, play it. Cool thing, like, he wasn't like over the top or anything, but just, he was just in this really steady way.

Yeah.

You know, I like you. Let's see where this goes. Let's take steps to make it happen. Which was really grounding and refreshing.

Yeah. My, my go-to joke in this moment would be like, Lord, I see what you've done for others.

It's when you meet person or the right situation comes, you don't wanna play games.

But back to topics and podcast. Yeah. Segue your idea, write it down.

Exactly. Looking for love in Finland.

Yeah. um, so, okay, so that's how Finland kind of shows up in your story. . And you've been here 10 years actually. . And, what prompted you to learn the finnish language and was there like a specific turning point or a specific need that pushed you to

Yeah, just absolute necessity. Like I just kind of came in with my eyes open right from the beginning. That was like, I want to live the most independent and restricted life I can here. And for me, having the language skills was key to that. I was like, I want to try and realize a version of myself in Finland that's as similar. To my English self, me in English as possible. Like it was that motivation of like, I want to be able to communicate, I want to go for opportunities and I don't wanna be restricted to this English speaking bubble within Finland. 'cause I was like, I could have just stayed in England if I'm gonna stay in that bubble. And curiosity as well.

Curiosity.

Curiosity. Yeah. I was like, I want to learn about Finland. I wanna learn about Finnish people. And I think you miss so much nuance when you don't have the language. . Like you miss humor, you miss reference you miss archetypes.

Mm

of people accents context, which I think comes from understanding the language as well. And yeah, so that was a motivation to me. I was like, okay, I want to get all these cultural markers and these signals. So that when I'm out and about in finnish life, I'm getting these references and I'm feeling this sense of connection and building from it as well. Building my own connection to Finland. So, and then also just being in the north, , I was five years in Kajaani when I first moved here. It's just not really an option to get by. Only, only in English. Finnish people make this joke about how like, people in Kajaani don't speak much anyway, so if you speak to them in English, they're gonna speak even less. So it, that was especially important then,

right?

That was like, okay, I wanna be able to do things myself. I don't want to have to rely on, arranging a translator or just missing out on a surface or an opportunity. I was like, okay, I wanna at least have a basic level so I can get out there and find out about things and do things. Do things myself.

Yeah. Wow. So in your learning journey . So, so first five years you said you were in Kajaani.

Yes.

Right. The time you made the decision to start, was it like pretty much immediately you came, or even before you came, you made the decision like you were going to learn the language?

Yeah. Even before, like on my second trip to Finland, I think second trip or first trip, I'd bought like a finnish. Textbook. . And I was like, I want to get some basic level Of finnish.

Yeah.

So I'd been studying already a little bit back in the uk just using this textbook that came with a CD and a little dictionary thing. I think it was Sun Suomi.

Mm-hmm.

Which is in English and finnish and designed for kind of independent study. So I started there, but then obviously like real study started first just independent at home. I would go to the library, look for other textbooks, or try and find resources online, which at that point was a lot more limited than it is, than it is now. But you know, whatever I could find there was like. Yle Had some materials like, videos, which I think are from like early two thousands or or nineties, uh, short videos of people going into supermarkets or asking questions just to get a little bit of something. And then I had to wait like a year before I could do an integration course. So in that year I was like, okay, I'm just gonna have to find different ways to study until I can get in a class, get support from a teacher.

Right, right. So one year before you got into an integration course but then you had already been like, looking at the textbook and then using the CD with the, like soliciting. And, and then with the supisuomi and then . What else were you doing that first year?

Oh yeah. Then also on Audible, you used to have this like really terrible, speaking course that I think was aimed at like, international businessmen doing business in, in Finland that only used the tear form, like the formal form of finnish. Where you say te instead of sinä

right.

And so it was like really unnatural . But I obviously didn't know better at the time, so I was kind of just trying to listen to that as much as possible. When I was like cleaning or, or whatever, I would repeat that loud to myself, was like really unnatural if you imagine like a very formal, like, I think American or Canadian businessman.

Yeah.

Asking the questions. Everything was like that. Or had like really obscure, outdated references in it's like. I think they were asking about telex machines and things like that.

Right.

That's like

very businessy,

very business and ancient like, but you know, just anything I could do, I was like, I'm gonna use, if I have to wait, I'm gonna use this this time. .

. So, yeah. So the question is kind of like also then, which of the things that you used in I, I want to like, take a bit of focus for the beginning part. . Yeah. So what of the things that you used, what do you feel like worked and what didn't?

Well the recording speaking course on Audible, definitely didn't help because it just made me more confused and it didn't give any explanation of how you build things. It was really just repetition, which for finnish just doesn't really work.

Right.

You know, because of how the grammar works, you need to understand grammar and the vocabulary because the vocabulary will look completely different depending on what grammar text. Tense you're using. . So, that didn't help very much, but listening to finnish music helped a lot because it gave me a sense of how a, how a sentence feels helped get me the ear for like, when does one word begin or when does another end, because that was really hard for me in the beginning. And then watching things like criminal Minds and CSI on TV with the finnish text

right

often just learning, you know, random words from that and then making that my word for the day. And, you know, just talking to myself and being like, okay, how can I get this word into my, into my day to day or learn more about this if there's something . Picking up upon. .

Alright. So you're picking up words from tv. . You are? Yeah. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. And, the next question would've been what resources did you use? But I think we've, kind of gone through them. . Were there any that kind of surprised you with how useful they were or how useless they were?

yeah. I think the, what surprised me was how many free resources were available in libraries.

Ah,

like, that was a really nice surprise because obviously, you know, like if you're not working or whatever, money is, money is short, and textbooks are quite expensive, so you don't wanna spend 50 euros on the textbook just to find out that it's not any good. So it was really good luck that at Kajaani Library, they had like a whole really big, section of different textbooks. And, interestingly enough, I found that some of the older ones were better. Because. They've, they gave more like practical examples matched to everyday life. So there were things that I could use more and practice more. um, I really don't like, Suomen mestari . I have to say

hot take.

That's my hot, hot take about finnish learning is I really don't like suomen mestari as a book, very sorry to the, to the writer.

Mm-hmm.

I think the problem with that book is that it is designed to use with a teacher teaching you

Ah, right.

It's not really designed for independent learning and therefore it's not really a very empowering approach to learning finnish. Because the problem is if you don't have that teacher there to explain to you. How to do question one or why you've done it wrong. You then dunno how to do question two, question three, question four. And you just have this list of stuff that you don't understand or can't do, or it feels dry. . When I've used the book with a great teacher, then yeah, it's a great tool. But for, for, I think most learners start with suomen mestari and it's so demotivating.

Right.

'because it's like, I don't understand any of this.

Right.

It's just like pages and pages of exercises, which is wonderful for practicing a concept that you have just learned and understand . But if you are lost, it just makes you more lost.

Right. That being the case, then what would you recommend as if you had to recommend three resources as the best for somebody starting, what would they be?

Uh, the finnish for Foreigners series,

finnish for Foreigners series,

finnish for Foreigners. I think they have like four books and they get harder as you go on. , And I, this is a caveat to say, I, I, I believe that they, if I remember correctly, they start off with with English as well. So if you already understand English, then obviously they're a good book. If you don't understand English at all, it's definitely not gonna help you with your finnish because you don't understand two languages in the book. If you ask someone that understands English, I think finnish for Foreigners series is a great handhold because it takes you through every step. It gives concrete examples and it builds and it builds your confidence at the same time as well, because you're not just opening the page and going. I don't understand that there's another page. I don't understand. . It gives you something to do to come back to most libraries have them, or you can pick them up, se secondhand. And then the other best resource I would say that I'd come back to time and time again is the, , a random finnish blog, I think it's called. There is this Finnish teacher. Oh, I've forgotten her name. I feel really terrible now.

I think I know who you're talking about. . I've chatted with her and then I even asked if I could put some of her content on the website.

Yeah. Because she's wonderful. Like her blog is so good, it's so expansive. It, it would, it's so bite size, so you can drop in, it can be part of your, you know, your daily commute or your daily learning process. So you just read like one topic where there's an explanation of a particular verb. Different situations to use it in, or sometimes they'll explain like similar sounding verbs and when to use them, like kautta ja käyttää with the, with the dots that you know.

Yeah.

What's the difference between, between the two? And then also, she's just made a ton of materials that support Finnish learning, like she has translated into simple Finnish selko kieli several books.

Oh, wow. Okay.

There is this finnish author that has made this series of like murder mystery books.

Yeah.

The first one is called, uh, "Punainen kuin veri", uh, you know, red like Blood. And she has made selko kieli versions of them. And when she first did that, she had a competition. To win the book. And I won the book. I was so excited because I was like, oh, one that I won, but two, because when she was promoting this, I was like, this is gonna be so great. I finally get to read something in finnish, because reading is a big hobby of mine, especially crime, related fiction. So I was like, oh, this is so my cup of tea, I'm gonna love this. And, I always come back to that book when I'm helping others. I recommend that they get this book. And then also look at her materials on her website designed to help you understand the book. So there is, I think she's uploaded like, I think to Spotify or something like that. Her saying, reading the book out loud so you can listen at the same time as you read to get that extra level of connection. And then there's like word searches and vocabulary list. Just to like, help support the learning. So you get this really immersive experience of reading the book and using your finnish in a, in a fun way where you're like, oh, this is like an extra step outside of like just the classroom into like leisure time. And, you know, being myself, being someone that reads crime books, it just felt like an extra tick of like, oh, I'm really doing it now because I can read this book,

Right, right, right.

That's one of my favorites for definite.

Okay, so the finnish Foreigner series. Random finnish blog, and I guess the random finnish blog authors books.

Yes. Yeah. Which you can get in libraries as well, by the way.

Okay. Okay, great. I'm feeling like maybe I should even make a whole article about this unless you want to do something that I can put on the website.

Yeah. I can put something

Awesome.

Put something together.

Besides the audible thing

mm-hmm.

Was there any that comes to mind as being Okay, this was useless. ,

Like back then, 'cause this is like 10 years ago.. So this is when things were first starting out. So Google Translate was useless at that point. . It had just started, but it would give you the most random suggestions sometimes. . That don't have anything to do.

Yeah.

With the thing it's meant to translating or it would give you a swear word. So I would only use it in an absolute emergency. And instead I used to walk around in my winter coat pocket. I would have like this little yellow mini finnish to English dictionary. Instead because Google Translate was, was not an option. And then also around that time it was Pre duolingo

Mm-hmm.

But there was like. Similar things, but they just didn't work quite as well. They were okay.

Okay.

But you kind of had to like build them yourself rather than it being like a ready made thing. Like duolingo. You kind of just go, okay, I wanna learn, finnish, and , it's ready to go pretty much. Whereas this, you had to build yourself, which is, which is okay, but like it would crash or whatever. They just, it wasn't, I preferred to just make my own flashcards. . Because it was, it didn't crash.

Yeah. Yeah. Fair, fair. From my experience also, like, if you are kind of building your own thing Mm. Or creating your own content, I found that to be quite, it was very annoying to do.

Yeah.

To put the work in. But then I think that part of the process also helped you learn

Yeah.

Quite a bit. I wish I had it, had it open, but I would have this where I would, let's say I would read a book, then I would take the words that I don't know, I would put it in Excel. Then I would go and find the definition and some example sentences. But then the example sentences have to be simple enough and not too long.

Yeah.

So there's all this criteria

mm-hmm.

There's a website called glossbe.com, which has like, like EU legal texts. . Or movie subtitles or the Bible or latest just random

Yeah.

Sourced randomly sourced texts. . And, yeah, so then I would find words sentence that use those words that I'm looking for, and then I would put them all in the Excel. Then I'd copy paste them into Quizlet.

So organized. I'm very impressed. I'm here with pen and paper. And you've got Excel sheets ready?

It's one of my superpower slash also one of my friction points. . So it's both. I'm just moving right now and, I'm moving with a friend. Well, we're supposed to be two friends and. I'll show you the Excel sheet I made for that

Ooh, nice.

Yeah.

I love a organized move, like checking boxes and date entering day.

Yeah. Uh, like description. . How long it takes to get to each of our workplaces. Our locations of interest. . All that. Status. Have you messaged the person? Yeah. I nerd out on those kind of things. What observations have you made about other people learning?

I think the observation I've made is something that it's, it's an idea that gets, repeated a lot. And I don't blame individuals for this. I blame

can, I guess what it is, the

bigger culture, you can guess what it is.

Can I guess what it is? I, because I, I feel like is it finnish is hard?

Yes.

Yeah. Got it.

Because how can you learn anything? If you go in with the idea that it's impossible,

right?

How can you get motivation? How can you, keep going on something that people are telling you over and over again? Don't bother. It's hard, it's impossible. You don't need it. You won't do it anyway. No one's gonna hire you anyway even if you learn finnish. All this negativity.

Yeah.

And I'm not saying that people don't struggle with finnish. I really want people to guess. I'll look at the camera when I say this because I don't want anyone to feel judged by what I'm saying, right? That's not my intention. 'Cause I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying, I don't think repeating the idea that it's hard, does anyone any favors. And I just feel really sorry for anyone that, like most people. When they get here, if they choose to come here, I'll give that caveat. But if you choose to move here, usually you come with like a level of excitement and hope and looking for opportunity. And if the first, comments you get about Finland is this like shutting door or this brick wall of it's hard, it's impossible, don't bother, then you're like squashing people's excitement and enthusiasm. And I feel like that's the time to leap with it, ? When you've got that natural enthusiasm.

Right.

'cause you know, enthusiasm and motivation, it's like a wave. It goes up and down. And if you're on a nice up because you just got here and you are, you want to learn to finnish.

Yeah.

You don't want people pushing you down and going like, no, no, don't bother. Just because they're in one of their. Low parts of the way. And like I've had my ups and downs of, of learning Finnish as well. , So I get it. And like, and you know, we can talk about the, the politics of language learning and language use here in Finland and language expectations. I'm not saying it's a perfect system, I'm not saying it's not challenging, but I just don't, I don't play into the idea that, that it's, hard or impossible.

Yeah.

I just think everyone has to figure out their own goal,

right?

Their own level. . And their own way of doing it. And not aim for perfect. Because I think that's a pitfall a lot of us go into at first. We're aiming for perfect. Or we're waiting for perfect. I'll do this when I'm perfect. I'll do this when I speak better. That's a big pitfall, which plays I think, into that idea of it being too hard. Because if you're keeping your goals way off in the future To this, into the distance of when I, I'm perfect at finnish, then of course you're gonna sit in this really dissatisfied feeling of, it's impossible. I'm not getting any closer, or it's still too far away. You have to set these like nearer goals, . Of okay, I'm gonna be able to go to the supermarket and understand what's the difference between the factory milk and the full fat milk or

Right.

I'm gonna, , go to the post office and. And be able to say, I wanna send this package in finnish. It has to be much more tangible goals because even, you know, in your first few weeks of learning finnish, you're like, I'm not gonna be successful if I don't, go after uni and do a whole master's in finnish. That's too far off in the future. To keep you motivated means have that as a future hope or a future goal, but you've gotta have so many goals in the meantime that are like, just little booth, keep going.

Yeah. This whole thing about finnish is hard. It's a, I don't know, you know, this Peeter Vesterbacka. This, um, angry Birds. He was like one of the

Oh yeah.

And also one of the founders of Slush thing. Yeah. And I was talking to him, like I had interviewed some people already and they had already mentioned this whole concept of like, people need to stop this finnish is hard thing that they do. Then when I was talking to him, he kind of explained it in a way that I was like, the way he said it kind of hit me in a way. Because for me it had always been like, like my thing was, okay, this is hard, but I'm harder.

Yeah.

And so it was, it was not a, it didn't feel defeatist to me to say it in that way.

Yeah.

So I never like, kind of realized that other people don't think about things in that same way that, that people Yeah. When people go for it, oh, see things as being hard, it's, a reason to not do the thing. And ever since then I was like, I've been trying to rephrase kind of my messaging on the

Sure.

Subject to, yeah. To appeal. No, not to appeal. To help more people.

You all see the world through different filters, ? And I think the filter that we, we have to be aware of that filter and, we have to be aware that sometimes people are trying to shove their, their own filter onto us. So we need to have a check-in and figure out, you know, how am I actually feeling? What do I actually want? Is there, is there some filter I'm putting up that is harming me? Is there another filter I could be putting up that could be helping me?

Right,

but, yeah, no, I like your perspective of like, you know, it's hard, but I'm harder.

Right? Yeah. I feel like when I make the hoodies or t-shirts, that's gonna be one of the phrases I put on there.

That's a good one.

Yeah. Are there any surprising or unconventional things that you did that most people might not think of?

I think probably the music. , the music thing. Because to me it was just another day of making it a part of my everyday life. So taking it out of the classroom, taking it out of the work environment, bringing it into leisure time, pleasure time, just for fun, just for relaxing and making it a natural part of the day. Because, you know, when I'm busy, I don't necessarily wanna sit down with a textbook, but I'll quite happily, put on some, some nice finnish rock music and, and you know, let it wash over me and

Right.

And enjoy it that way. Like that was really helpful for me. And then, like an extension of that, like I made, when I was practicing for Yki test, I made myself like a playlist on YouTube of like some of my favorite finnish songs or. Or songs that kind of related to something. I was trying to remember. Like you were talking about, you found like sentences for your Excel spreadsheet. I kind of did the same with songs. Like if there's, , I'm trying to think of an, of an example. , Oh yeah, there's the, um, Missä muruseni on song . song,

one of my, I love that song,

which is like, such a dramatic song. And I think I'd been trying to practice that whole thing where you add "Ni" to something to make it like yours So muruseni, you know, keep repeating it that way. So I would listen to that and it kind of just made it click somehow. . And it helped me with pronunciation, even though my pronunciation is still not the best. I do think it has helped improve, for instance, hearing the difference between, a with the dots and o with the dots and the Y because it's. So difficult, I think in the beginning if you're not used to those. Sounds like for me, I just remember for the longest time I was like, I'm just not hearing it. Like, and it would then affect my spelling because I didn't know when I should be putting the dots and when, when I shouldn't be. But listening to songs and knowing that, okay, like this song is about päivä, then I know that one word, I know how it sounds. I was just bit by bit started to hear the difference between a normal A and an A with the dots, or I had a reference point . Where I could just repeat that part of a song and be like, okay, yeah. Like maybe it's tukkimo or Yö or whatever it is. Like whatever the word is, I could think of a song. . And kind of double check with myself. Just play it in my head if needs to be

Yeah. So music was the kind of like unconventional thing? . Yeah. Okay. Actually, let me go off script a little bit again. So year one would be 20 15, 20 16.

Yeah.

At which point did you feel like you reached, the level you're currently at or at

today? Because I just feel like learning a language is not a straight line.

Right,

right. That's my really annoying answer. It would be to be like, it's not a straight line because I feel like one day or within the same day

mm-hmm.

I will speak really well and naturally, and then I'll go to the next meeting and I can barely get a sentence out. So there's that, but if I try and give a rough estimate in terms of years, let's see. I think I did my Yki testi and passed my Yki, I think it was 2018.

So that's for B one. Right.

Yeah. I felt like level four Yki testi. So it's B one,

it should be two. If you go to level four it B two, it would be

around that point.

So that's three-ish years.

Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, it was like, I'm pretty sure it was 2018.

Did you do any like, second the, the C-level tests as well?

No.

Okay.

I haven't done it done that at this point. It's something I've thought about, but

Okay. You wanna do that?

Possibly, you know, I think it can be useful just to see where you're at. My main measure these days is work and studies in Finnish, like, what am I able to do with my current finnish level.

Mm-hmm.

That's how I kind of assess it. And then luckily, I actually have a friend who's a really excellent, Finnish teacher, Katja. And, she has, we work together, we've worked together on, on projects, and she was able to give me. Some tips about how to assess my finnish level. 'cause that's something we were doing within the project was, um, doing these courses where people can figure out what level of finnish they have now.

Yeah.

What level of finnish they need for their goals and how they can get there, like independently, like without taking classes necessarily, but like how can you improve your finnish

Yeah.

In your everyday life. And so I, while we were making this project, I learned a lot from her. And I used to say it all the time. I was like, this is great just for me. I feel like an extra participant. So that gave me some really good framework for how to assess my own finnish. And I would say I've got to this now con confident level of working finnish.

Mm.

In the last couple of years. But I had a very kind of stable ish, good level of day-to-day finnish. Probably within. A year and a half, two years of learning finnish. . I would say like when I've, 'cause I was kinda studying independently for like a year before doing the integration course. I went straight into the two A level and, but my, what was kind of tricky at first was everyone else in my class had been to like one A, one, one B, and , you know, they worked their ways up the,

yeah,

up the level. So, let's see. Yeah, I was in R2.1. Yeah. A 2.1.

Yeah.

And if one else had done like 1.1, 1.2,

yeah.

Before,

so you had basic jumped class?

So I had jumped class, Which felt like an achievement. When I got the notification that I could go straight to the class, I like, oh, great. But then I got in the classroom. And then the teacher would be like, what verb type is this? And everyone would go like, Verbi tyyppi viisi. And I would like,

what is that?

How is everyone knowing this. Like I knew there were different verb types. . But I couldn't just, you know. Right. Shout out. Like Yeah. That's definitely, that's definitely number one, number five. But everyone had that instinctive feel for the verbs, which I think comes in quite handy later when you get into the more complicated grammar, which I then still understood. But I had, I'd kind of done my own hacked version of

Yeah.

Learning the grammar and kind of just learning it off by heart rather than

the theory of it.

The theory of it. . Which every so often will still pop up.

Right, right.

Is when I'm trying to say something in finnish I'll,

my theory is, is my theory is almost non-existent. . Especially now. 'cause when I did my aggressive study of it . Was 2022. So then I do, I used, so I, I started. In 2022, I was, I was starting from like a B one-ish, B two level level, and I'm trying to get to C level.

Yeah.

Because again, like you mentioned that you wanted to be the same version of yourself that you would be in England.

Yeah.

That was like, 'cause it's like my soul was dying here.

Yeah.

If I'm gonna spend my, my good years here . I better enjoy it. . So, so I, I was like aggressively, I don't know if I explained how I did it, but, just that year, put it on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, everywhere. If somebody speaks Finnish, we're only speaking Finnish for that year. Yeah. And I knew how far I go is just directly proportional to how much effort I was going to put into the thing, or how much pain I was willing to endure.

Yeah. How uncomfortable outta your comfort zone you were willing to go to be. .

So with Gram, so it was, for me, it was not a matter of studying, which is verbi tyypit, this or that. It was more of like, I'm getting all the vocabulary I can. . And just, having all my commonly stated sentences come naturally from me.

Yeah. That was kind of my thing as, as well, like

Right.

Kind of understanding the theory, but I have to say like, I'm not a grammar person.

Right.

Like even in English, even though I studied to do like English as a second language teaching and stuff, which, , which I can do it when I focus on it, I can really remember, but it's not instinctual to me.

Right. Same.

And

same.

And I think that's the thing. If it doesn't feel instinctual, you have to find your own way. And usually that's kind of like, just kind of remembering it as a whole in a way. Like with an example going like, I know that this word is said this way, this way and this situation.

Yeah. Grammar. English as a subject itself was not really my, I remember for high school I got like, I wrote like eight subjects. I got an A on everything except English. 'cause it's like, I just can't,

I was more the literature side. I care more about the content than how it's built. . It's my problem. I think it's, been the same with finnish that I'm like, yeah, yeah kielioppi. I have to force myself to pay attention to the kielioppi because I'm like, when do we start talking?

That's what I'm interested in.

Using beautiful adjectives and making sentences. . And asking questions and communicating about big topics. I was like, I wanted to go ahead, I wanted to read books already. I was impatient in that, in that sense. Like I wanted to go into the beautiful side of language and the cultural side of language very quickly. And I was like, kielioppi grammar is like akin to maths to me. I'm not a numbers person either as well. . I can do basic maths if I have to. I've got my grades that I needed in school, but like. Please don't make me use maths. I don't. I feel the same about grammar.

Yeah.

If I do that higher level, that C one test or whatever, I know I'm gonna have to study the grammar seriously.

I think for me, I've now developed an ear for some of, some parts of finnish. . I've developed an ear for some parts of finnish, so that would possibly help me out a bit on that. But I don't know if I would ace. The C test, grammar side of the C test. Now I'm like, uh,

it takes some real study.

Yeah,

I'm just not sure if I'm willing to do that, that heavy grammar study again. 'cause when I was doing Yki testi

yeah.

I was doing a lot of grammar practice. 'cause I knew I needed it for the Yki testi. . And it really got to me, like, I would wake up in the middle of the night. I was so stressed, I was like dreaming about Kielioppi and I had a textbook, like, just like the grammar book next to my bed and I was like opening it to look something up. 'cause I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Wow.

Don't do this when you do the Yki testi, keep your box in a different room.

Yeah.

It's because I had decided that like the oppi was gonna be the secret to passing this Yki test, which obviously you need a good level . Of kielioppi. But it's not, it's not the whole test. .

True

would've enjoyed the whole process a lot more or probably maybe even had a better result in some things if I just wasn't so exhausted and stressed by the time the Yki test because I got so obsessed with this idea of I must understand all of finnish grammar now.

Yeah. , , what are the passive things you did or things that have already been set up or happen to be in a certain way already that helped you?

The passive stuff, and again, this kind of ties into like, when there's a stereotype that finnish is hard or people will tell me and they genuinely believe this like, it's too hard. I can't learn finnish. um. There's so much passive stuff that we're exposed to all the time.

Mm-hmm.

That will drip, drip, drip, finnish

into you, into

your brain. . And that's what I'll say with people, it's like you are learning all the finnish all the time. You're just not necessarily noticing it. And I think the passive things are things like, you're on the bus, you're on the metro, all the stops are in finnish, there's advertisements coming up, there's news articles coming up on the metro. If you are reading, like, just reading like two sentences, during a commute, I, I will quite often find like a new word or I'll suddenly understand a word because it'll be in a different context. So I think that's, a really powerful passive factor, . 'cause I'm kind of just zoned out, just look, happen to be looking at the screen just 'cause it's right in front of me. And then without realizing, I'm learning, learning something extra and extra finnish, uh, looking for, you know, discounts. In the Lidl adverts, or the Tokmanni , Tokmanni adverts that come to the door. Just 'cause I wanna save money.

Yeah.

That was a good, passive way as well. And then, I dunno if I can call this passive 'cause it was active in a way, but it was passive in the sense that it wasn't my intention that I was like, I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna improve my finnish. It was more of a necessity thing. Was that when I finally got onto my first finnish course? I made friends, with this Brazilian lady, vandeli, hi Vandeli. At the time she didn't speak English. I don't speak Portuguese, so we had to speak Finnish to each other. And we just like, we clicked straight away and we really wanted to speak to each other.

Mm.

And just chat and gossip and all the good stuff that we had to do that in finnish. . And I feel like that just made my finnish leap forward. Because even though I'd been studying at home and studying in class until I had that natural way of using finnish, it didn't click in the same way. And also like there was no pressure 'cause we both weren't fluent.

Right.

But we were just aiming to communicate with each other and we would just speak like, you know, I like to call, what we call like foreigner finnish. No, I think we can all get that when like, it's so much easier to speak to other foreigners in Finnish because like we read between the lines, we just grab the context. We're not paying attention to the kielioppi. We can use the like, basic form of a, of a verb and chop it up in a sentence and we'll be able to pick it up and um, yeah, there's no pressure.

Yeah.

So in that sense it was totally passive because it wasn't about speaking amazing Finnish, it was about just like. You know, I have to tell Vandeli about something that happened last night, or, , I wanna know, you know, what's happening with her kids or something like, tomorrow or, you know, whether there's a party coming up or something.

Yeah. This, that's actually a very good one. Uh, one example that you're giving, the one that I heard from one of my episodes was, the guy who had a paternity leave and then he would go, for lunch every day with the kid. The kid would fall asleep and so he started buying people lunch and having them speak, finnish with him for an hour.

Nice.

Pretty good way of going about things.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Muskari is nice as well. Speaking of babies and toddlers and stuff, , there is these Finnish, , like baby and parent or toddler and parent clubs called Muskari .

Muskari , okay.

It's like music for. For small kids. . Where you sing like nursery rhymes and stuff. That's a really nice way to learn, finnish or practice, finnish because, they sing the same songs every week.

Okay.

And they have a lot of repetition 'cause they're, you know, kids songs or lullaby and things like that. So there's like,, uh, metrolla mummolaan, you know, taking the metro to Granny's house and there's a lot of like, repetition. You meet other people, which I think is always a boost. Boost just for your energy and, something to do like if you're stuck at home with, with small kids. And so, yeah, it's passive in that sense that you're not going there to learn. You're going there to do something nice with your, with your kid. But the by, you know, extra result of that is you're hearing different words all the time. Maybe chat with the people there, so. That reminded me, like that guy. Right. I really enjoyed Muskari

Okay. Okay.

With my

Well, that's a, that's another

little one

good. And I think, I think that basically the theme of this, that these ones that you mentioned is just like, there's a lot of places that we are constantly learning finnish. But then we are just not aware that we are. And I hope that if anyone's listening to this, that they realize like, oh, actually all of these things that I'm doing

Yeah.

Are opportunities for me to learn.

Yeah.

Let me kind of open myself or welcome it.

Yeah. And also like, if you're beating yourself up and going like, oh, I need to study, finnish more. Oh, I'm so bad at doing my finnish. I'm so bad at practicing my finnish. You are still practicing your finnish every day. So notice the ways that you are practicing your finnish, these passive things, it all adds up. You are studying finnish every day, whether you have a textbook in front of you or not. There's a million or one ways to then learn finnish. And, you know, if you, if that gives you a little boost, use that little. Boost to motivate yourself. Do a little bit more, little bit more, little more, but try and avoid this all or nothing. Thinking

this, since I learned this thing, it's changed quite a bit for me. Not even just to finnish. Just like if I can't do the full hour of the gym And I just do 15 minutes at home or just, I do just, I dunno. I do 20 pushups. . That's still something.

It's a step forward.

Yeah. It's

absolutely

all of those things compound over time. . This is one of the newest questions I had added. Well, what is your hot take?

My hot take? Okay. Hot take. What did I say before?

You said the thing with the suomen mestari is overrated.

Oh yeah, that's, yeah. Like please, if you're just learning finnish, especially if you are not in a finnish class where you can get help from a teacher.

Yeah.

Please don't start with suomen mestari. Okay. 'cause it's not gonna motivate you. It's gonna feel dry, hard, technical, especially like if, if you have like a little bit of school related drama. You know, if you, if you feel like you're someone who like really didn't enjoy school or struggled at school and so you kind of just have this kind of, of feeling when you're reading a textbook, suomen mestari is really going be really gonna bring up those, those feelings and it's not gonna necessarily be a good motivator. So my recommendation would be, my hot take would be, skip the suomen mestari, go to your library or suomalainen kirjakauppa and see what else is there. Flick through and . Go with what appeals.

Right? Right. What are like active things you did? Like did you have a study routine, speaking habits, et cetera? Those,

yeah, like especially when I was practicing for the Jki testi or when I was like first, in the integration . Classes I did try and be quite structured about it and kind of treat it as like, okay, this is my, at least at certain times is the day that this is my priority for the day. Treat a bit like a job. I would, um, try and get to class a little bit early so that I could go over and like remind myself, okay, what did we do for homework? Or what did we go over last time? Just to keep it fresh before we go in. And sometimes I would set myself like a little challenge of like a question I could ask my teacher or something I could ask my teacher about in finnish. So that was like kind of my routine in, in the morning. And then, and then like if I, once I wasn't in, in my finnish class, I would try and do my homework in, in every evening or . Some independent study every evening and like you say, like five minutes, 10 minutes. It doesn't have to be a whole hour. Like, you know, I have a million kids. I don't have, endless hours every evening to be doing like tons and tons of study.

Mm-hmm.

And then I would just try and make it part of my routine. So I would watch pikku kakkonen with the kids. That's another nice passive way of learning finnish. You're just having quality, you know, quiet quality time with the kids doing something they liked to do. They wanted to watch pikku kakkonen. I watch it with them. We would talk about it. And I would try and read something. In finnish every day. . So for instance, I joined like Facebook groups that were in Finnish, like the local like, roskalaiva or, you know, area group.

Right.

Just to see what people are posting in Natural Finnish. Even if I wasn't understanding it, I'd be like, okay, I'll read it, I'll give it a go. I'll try and understand a couple of words, or if there's something I don't know, I'll try and look it up. So, yeah, I'll try and read something in finnish and watch something and hear something every day. So listen to a song in finnish, or listen to the radio, watch pikku kakkonen, or some other finnish program. Or if I was like feeling pretty tired and like I just wanted to zone back into my love of crime dramas, then it would be like, you know, watch, watch something like, you know, law and Order. But with finnish subtitles. You know, challenge myself to at least, at least read a few sentences in finnish, just to keep it going. So there's just that drip, drip, drip. Every day.

Wow.

That was my general routine.

What, uh, conscious changes did you make in your life that made it easier to practice than to not practice?

Yeah, I think just putting myself in more situations where I just had to use finnish. Right. I think that's the best way is like, , and like I said earlier, it was helped by the fact that I was in Kajaani, so I couldn't just

Right.

Pull into this, English bubble, which is . Which is so much more tempting when you're in the capital region. There's so much going on in, in English. . Luckily I, you know, I have some lovely friends still, still in Kajaani that I would speak English to, and, and. That's fine. But I would still try and put myself in situations where just had to get by in finnish. So for instance, like very quickly, like if we had school meetings, like with my kids or daycare meetings, I think the first two times we had a translator, but after that I was like, we're gonna scrap the translator one because it slows things down. Two translators are mixed some are good some are not so good. But three, because I was like, I'm just gonna have to do this eventually.

Right.

So if I know I have a meeting coming up, and I know there's things I want to discuss or that we have to discuss, I would study for it, prep for it, and just try and get by.

Yeah.

By that way. And, again, I'll, I'll add another caveat of, I do have a finnish husband so I can get help with finnish language in that sense. But like, he wasn't sitting down actively.

To study with you,

chat study with me or practice with me. And like he would come to these meetings with me so I could like quickly turn to him and be like, what's this? But he wasn't translating the whole thing for me. He wasn't speaking for me. I would still put that responsibility on myself, that I'm gonna lead this meeting as much as I can, but if there's like one word, two words, or there's something I'm really not getting, he was my backup in that sense, rather than having a full translator. And then also just doing stuff, just, you know, daily life shopping in finnish, doing the kela stuff myself. Doing any kind of forms myself, just, you know, sit there with a dictionary if I had to. But just try and get things done. You might make mistakes fine. I would just try and learn from them, make a note of things. But yeah, I would just try and avoid as much as possible. Leaning on that safe safety net.

Right.

Of doing things in In English.

In English, yeah. . I guess that also partially answers the next question, but then I'll ask it. Of course. So I've realized that integration is like a huge factor. And how have you integrated yourself into Finland? Do you have any groups in your life that you could get to speak, finnish with you and whatnot?

Hmm. Well, like I say, like I think one factor was, again, I'm very privileged that I have a Finnish husband and he has Finnish family members and they've been very supportive of my, of my Finnish. And we talk finnish quite a lot. And so that was, that was, really lovely in that sense that I, sadly they didn't live near by us and they still don't live near by us. We're all on different corners of, of Finland, so we don't see each other kind of day to day. But when we do come together. It's been lovely to kind of slot into a Finnish family in that sense and learn their, Kuusamo slang and their own family slang and their made up words. . For, for things. Uh, which confused me at first, but then gave me such a great sense of belonging once I started to learn these funny phrases and things. I say like förkkä , for money and ah, uh, Genti is a nickname of my mother-in-law. , . And, where that came from, that like, just being part of this in a joke and then, like I say, Vandeli, my friend from Finnish class and using Finnish all the time, that was a great sense of community and then now working and being in the work community and

yeah.

Using finnish on a different level all the time.

Yeah.

Has given me a real sense of confidence and belonging, with my finnish that I didn't really have

Right.

Have before. I'm trying to think. Is the, the thing is I've usually been quite busy, so I haven't been to do that many hobbies. . In finnish,

for example, the Muskari, for example,

but the Muskari I did Yeah. That, that was really great. That gave a great sense of being part of something and having the opportunity to practice, finnish. '

Cause I can imagine it's not something that you're compelled to go to, right?

No. It was just, I wanted to do something with, with my, with my baby and that was nearby. I used to go to Zumba with my Finnish teachers. That was really lovely.

Okay.

To feel like brought into that and, you know, having to learn what the Zumba moves are in Finnish

mm-hmm.

That was a nice way of doing it. That gave a sense of community. And then now I think my current, um, extra way of learning Finnish is coming from, I'm currently studying lyhyt terepia brief therapy.

Mm-hmm.

And that's all in Finnish,

right?

All the lectures are in Finnish, all pretty much all the materials in finnish. And then we have like small groups, which we, meet regularly with, and all the conversations are in finnish. So it's a real like sink or swim experience where I just have to work really hard to keep up. But, it's actually been so much nicer and easier than I was expecting. Like the group has been really supportive and I have felt like I belong I'd always wanted to do this. This lyhyt terapia, and my mother-in-law is a, is a psychotherapist, and she'd always recommended to me that I do this brief therapy studies. And I was always like, no, no, no. You know, it's too hard. I don't have a good enough finnish. And maybe one day.

Yeah.

I always had just decided that my finnish was not good enough, and that if I either wouldn't get in or when I get there, I won't understand anything. No one will be nice to me because I'm just the stupid person that doesn't understand what's being said. And it hasn't been like that at all. , right, right. From the first moment.

Right.

I felt welcomed. I felt like I understood. I was like, this is actually conversational in a lot of ways.

Right.

You know, an achievable level of finnish where I don't understand a word of what's being said and I'm looking through the materials and I'm going, okay, this is, you know, it's got language related to, to the therapy field. It's got technical language that obviously I have to study and practice. But otherwise, like, this is understandable,

right?

it's not, I was visualizing something so much more unachievable than, than the reality. So that's my latest community.

Okay. So from your experience when people don't succeed at learning finnish

mm-hmm.

What has usually been the reason?

Life again, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I quite often will be quite blunt about things and state the obvious, but I mean, life in the sense of life is complicated. Things come up and down. Situations change. Best intentions sometimes are interrupted by, by changes in life, changes in plans. But I think that that's okay. It's normal, you know? I think all of us, even outside of learning, learning a language, we've all had moments in our life where we've had plans that were working towards. Something might give us a sideways move or stop things for a while, and we have to try something different. And I think learning a language is the same. And I think we have to, be merciful to ourselves and like not beat ourselves off if we're not necessarily where. We would like to be with our language now. And we have to look at our situation and be like, okay, what's happened previously? You know? It's not about making excuses, it's about just being honest and going. Like for instance, if you had really bad health problems, that meant you had to drop out your finnish class or just meant you have no, uh, capacity to do extra study or, you know, you've had like really big stress in your life. You know, like you've been worried about your resident's permit or you've lost a job or you can't get a job or you're getting divorced or you know, elderly parents, kids getting flu all the time. So you have to be away from class or be away from work or, . Or you know, money being tight, so you have to cancel your lessons. Like of course those are gonna , those are bumps in the road. They're gonna, they're gonna affect things. So, you know, we have to look at some greater context and go, okay, what has affected things? And then, if you feel like, you know, I just, I just wanna learn more or I want to be to speaking better, but I just dunno where to start with it. Start with something really low threshold, because I believe that even if you've had a bad experience previously . And I've, like, I've had people tell me that like, for instance, their first finnish teacher, like. They just didn't click with it was a really bad experience, or they didn't click with their class, or there was bureaucratic things.

Mm.

You know, courses getting canceled or moved or something, and they just had like a bad start to finnish. It's made them kind of put it on hold or feel like, oh, just forget about it. If that's the case, I always try and urge people to like, just try something else. Like, you know, maybe you're gonna be the one person who will never learn, finnish. Maybe that's true. Maybe everything you're saying. Like, you know, if someone's really negative and they're like, yeah, I've failed. I haven't learned finnish, I'm never gonna do it. It's too hard. I'm like, okay, let's just, okay. We can agree with that, but should we try anyway? Should we try one more time? Should we try a different course or a different teacher or a different textbook,

right.

Or. Different Kielikahvilat, you know, these language cafes or shall we just talk a bit of finnish between us?

Mm.

Or should we just put some music or go to karaoke in finnish Just whatever. Just to start afresh, take a step forward and you know, let's try, let's put like some timeframe. Let you know, give six months of trying a year of trying whatever. And you know, if you still feel like a failure, fine. But the reality is usually when we do something, when we take an action, we can't help but make progress of some kind. And it just changes the, the energy. 'cause I think the longer we stay stuck in the idea of like, I failed or failed, I haven't learned it, or you know, it's gone like this, the opportunity to learn to finnish is never gone. Like I know people that have been here like 20 years say, and they've had really bad experience with learning finnish, or they find it really hard and. Like for 20 years, they've kind of just put it on the back burn. and just forgotten about it. Written it off for something they're not gonna do. But then, , or like for instance, during the pandemic, I had, I had a friend who been here like 20 years, had really negative feelings about finnish, but it was pandemic times stuck at home. There's not much else to do.

Mm-hmm.

So they were like, you know what, I'm gonna pick up a textbook again and I'm gonna download duolingo. I'm just gonna do it 'cause I've run out of other stuff. To do yeah. . You know, they'd already reorganized the kitchen three times and whatever, you know what I mean? They were like, you know, while reorganizing the house, they found one of their old textbooks or something. But you know what, just every morning with my coffee, I'm gonna do two pages or something and then I'm gonna do Duolingo in the evening or something. And like, they were so in shock of how much they came forward just by doing those two things. And like we, I remember us having some great chats about this, about how it's clicking, it's different this time. It's just different. And so yeah. That would be what I have to say to anyone that feels like they're past it. Maybe you are past it, but try anyway. . And just see where it goes.

Okay. Okay. I guess that's, that's weirdly weird reassuring, like Yeah. But you brush out again,

it doesn't cost you anything.

Yeah.

You know? Good bit like, going back to education. I had to drop out of uni when I was 18.

Mm-hmm.

And I so had this mindset of like, it's gone forever. I can never go back to higher education. It's just gone. And I live that way until, let's see, what did year did I start at Diak 2022. I started at dak. So what, three years ago? Right. So from 18 to, how old am I now? 36.

Right.

I was past it. You know, higher education was not my thing. Yeah. I was never gonna do it. I was never gonna get degree. Impossible. Then I applied for Diak got in, I studied.

Yeah.

And now I have my degree. So, you know, I'm glad, I'm glad I just decided to just send out a random application. The worst I can say is no, I'll be back to where I am. Which is without a degree.

Okay. So I should apply for Harvard.

Yeah. Why not apply everywhere?

Right.

Especially if you don't have to pay for the application. Like here in Finland you don't have to pay for application.

Right. Okay. So what I feel like you are, you have already kind of answered these things a fair bit, but, I, again, like I said, like I, I try to come at the same thing from different angles. Sure. 'cause. Maybe you might explain it in a different way that it will resonate with somebody, but, what do you feel that you did that others didn't do?

Hmm. I think that's a tough question, but I'm gonna think like, what was the missing thing? I think it was, it kind of ties to what I was saying, like just a minute ago about, you know, going back to higher education. I was like, you know what, if I can't do something fine, I'm still gonna try. And then I'll know that I can't do something. And then I can stop thinking about it. And I think that was kind of my approach to finnish. I was like, you know what, maybe I'm never gonna sound smart or feel myself in finnish. But I'm gonna try. And then when I've tried all I can and I run out of options, then I give myself permission to, to give up. But to this point, I'm still on my journey. I'm still learning, I'm still developing. So I'm still not giving myself permission to give up because I've proven to myself time and time again that like, I'm just gonna do it. Like I, you know, sometimes I'll just say it, say it to myself, I'll just be like, you know, do it crying, but do it. . And sometimes I'll literally be saying that out loud to myself while crying, like,

yeah,

you know, I'm gonna do it if I'm nervous before I have to, you know, like my current job, I have to like present quite often in finnish on teams or something. And sometimes I'll be like literally crying before the teams meeting. 'cause I'm like, I gotta do it. It's really hard. And, and then I'll be like having this dialogue myself. I'm like, well, yeah, you have a cry right now. This is your time to cry. And then you're gonna wipe your face and you're gonna do it. And maybe you'll do it badly, but you're gonna do it badly. You're gonna do it crying, but you're gonna do it . 'cause we don't have another option here.

Right. Yeah. I love that. That's, and that's also like the definition of courage. Because if you're not scared or you're not nervous or whatever, then you doing the things not courageous, it's just you doing the thing. But when you do have the fear or the nerves and the anxiety, and you do that, you figure out how you force yourself to do the thing anyways. That is what courage is. Like definition. And, and, and one thing I've also noticed with forcing yourself to do things, even though you're scared or you're nervous or anxious, is that it becomes like, it's like a mental muscle.

Mm-hmm.

The more you do it, the more, the easier it is to overcome it. The next time you feel it.

Yeah. 'cause you know you're likely gonna survive it

right.

Because it's rarely as bad as we make it in our mind before the thing happens.

A hundred percent.

And also, like one thing I've realized, like especially in recent times, like since, working at um, higher and higher level and meeting, uh, higher and higher level people that I like really admire and really respect is I'm realizing that pretty much everyone is scared and pretty much everyone feels like they don't know what they're doing. I don't have to feel like I have to know everything or be sure that I know everything. I just try and be open and, and, and curious. So like if I don't know something, I try and just name it and use it as an opportunity to learn. 'cause I feel like we often stumble into bigger problems by pretending we know something like better to ask. um, and yeah, just the more I've seen like. Like the behind the scenes of something where like someone I first met and I felt like, oh, they're like a real expert in their field and they're so accomplished and they're so confident. And then maybe I've like spoken at an event with them.

Yeah.

And before the event I'm like, oh my God, I have to speak. I have these people that are like, so accomplished and I'm just me and I'm gonna mess up and, you know, what can I possibly contribute? And I'm just gonna be so nervous and they're gonna be there all shiny and happy competent , and then it's gonna be me.

Yeah.

But in the backstage, you're chatting and you see that they're nervous, they're anxious, they're questioning themselves as well. And then when you're in that moment of like, okay, we're all peers and we're gonna support each other and we're gonna do this together and we're part of something, then it just like, oh, that bit of anxiety melts away a little bit because you're like, I'm not alone in this imposter syndrome. Feeling.

Yeah.

And you can use that imposter syndrome feeling as a reason to not do something. Or you can see it as a reminder of like, if I feel this way,

mm-hmm.

Probably means I should be doing this thing or trying to do this thing because it's something that could take me forward or I can learn something from. That's what's triggering this impossible syndrome. This is a growth possibility right now. Right. Coming because if we only do what we're comfortable with, we're gonna stay in this little comfort zone.

. So I'll do a rapid fire thing where we'll do, I'll ask you the different, there's like six parts of language, at least according to my

Okay.

Research. So speaking, listening, grammar, reading, writing in a vocabulary. . So let's start with speaking.

Okay. So, in the beginning, that felt like the biggest challenge. So the way I tackled that was to challenge myself to ask questions. In the supermarket I would ask, you know, where is the bread? Where is the milk? And sometimes my question would come out clearly, and sometimes it wouldn't. But I would be like, I'm just gonna ask the question, and if it doesn't work, I'll just walk off. So that was the beginning for speaking. And then was it now

like later on?

Later on, yeah. Now it's just. Trying to throw myself into as many opportunities to speak on as many different topics as possible. So it's now, it's like, presenting, doing workshops or customer work, or chatting with colleagues. Asking questions or asking an expert at a seminar question in finnish so I can Okay. Just keep getting more and more exposure,

in, let's say year three, around the time you did Yki.

Mm-hmm.

What would've been the ways you practice speaking?

Yeah. At that time, it was just like speaking, kind of same as I do now, just speaking in every opportunity possible. I'm trying to get my husband to speak, finnish with me, usually unsuccessfully. . Speaking, finnish with the neighbor maybe, or,

yeah.

Because I really believe that when it comes to practicing speaking, it doesn't matter if you speak it perfectly or if you're speaking it with other people that speak perfectly. Just speak. Just say something.

Okay. And what about listening? Listening comprehension.

Listening comprehension. Yes. I gotta think it comes back to my music tip right from the beginning and even to now. It's like, listen to a song, look at the lyrics, translate it if I need to, if something's still isn't clear. Like that's pretty much been, been a constant. And then at later stages it was like, okay, looking for more things I could listen to. So like I mentioned earlier on, there was the, reading that, listening to the audio. To the audio at the same time. So, yeah.

And then grammar.

Word grammar. Okay. So, yeah, honestly, talking to myself, having a conversation with myself, trying to use the different forms or something. So like a Avain, avaimet, that kind of thing. Just have a, give examples to myself while walking around and doing other things or cleaning. Just kind of talk to myself and try and use it in different phrases. Till it felt like instinctual. And then like, if I just couldn't remember something then, then looking at the textbook or the grammar book to figure it out from that.

Right. And then of course, I'm guessing, the courses you did there, it was also practiced somewhat.

Yeah. Like the teacher was actively teaching us teaching the key, key grammar things and yeah. Okay. Just opening that scary grammar book as often as possible.

Yeah. And then reading. So what kind of things, how did you practice reading? Especially at the beginning. . And then maybe in like year three,

practicing reading. In the beginning, like I said, I had that Sun suomi textbook that had some good reading practice sections. So I'll try and do those pretty much every day. Just do a little bit. And then when I was learning a little bit more, it would be, like I said, reading the adverts that come through the door, going through the tokmanni advert, going through the city market advert, to practice reading that way. And then again, that punainen kuin veri book. And then, um, reading on Facebook, reading adverts in shops, just any exposure to reading as much as possible. And then trying to practice reading like, uh. Big, Agatha Christie fan, I started trying to read her books in Finnish as well. 'cause it's something familiar. I've read them in English a million times. . So just like step forward. Right. And now it's reading the brief pre therapy books in in finnish, getting more directly work. . Work language.

Right. And then writing.

Writing, again, write to myself, you know, write out sentences, write a letter to myself, set myself a little challenge. Posting things for sale on Facebook once I got a bit more confident, you know. Just long time just reading what, what, how is everyone else writing it?

Yeah.

You know, if I wanna sell the kids old ice skates or whatever. And then obviously messaging the people that wanna buy it and arranging collections. So just building, building different ways of using it in finnish or filling out the, uh, Kela, , you know, notification. So to get the unemployment benefits, that was a regular writing task, or having to message my Ohjaaja. At the, you know, the unemployment officer to ask questions or, sign up for something. So just bit by bit every day. Okay. Everyday writing

and then finally vocabulary.

Mm.

I think at least now you said you, you got a book even before you moved here. How did you go about vocabulary

Yeah, so that was my first step to gathering some vocabulary was that terrible audible course that I already mentioned.

Yeah.

So that taught me like numbers and colors and a few things. Just gave me no context of how to use them in a practical way.

Mm-hmm.

And then Sun suomi was great because it had a lot of vocabulary and it had a separate sanasto, you know, separate vocabulary book for the whole course, you know, the whole course glossary. And then, yeah, just looking for new words and writing down, like you mentioned earlier on, you would write something down if you came across a new word. , you would write it down. I would do similar as well. So just being like a. Collector . Of vocabulary. .

So tell me of the times that you found it most difficult to kind of continue chasing the goal of learning finnish.

I think that would probably be like, I got really ill, at one point I had like, really bad health problems, just after the Yki testi. So I don't know if that was a factor or a coincidence, but that really set me back for a while. And was like

immediately after, or almost immediately,

a few months after I would say so around that time. . And I just felt like I've lost a lot of momentum and it was emotionally really hard so look, this is what I say, like when I, when I say I really, I really get it when people feel. Bad about their language level or their progress, or they feel like they've missed an opportunity. And that's it. I really, I really get that mindset. I have been in that feeling myself, where it just felt, impossible or complicated or too hard because I felt like, when I came to Finland, I hit the ground running. There was a little, setback when I had to wait a year for a course, but I studied independently. I found a way, a way around it in that sense, and, fought to get my first course because my Te officer did not want to give me a course at all Uhhuh, because, , I didn't need to learn finnish according to him because I was just gonna stay at home and have lots of kids. So there's no need for a

what

integration course he, I wasn't the only person he said that to as well. So, that was my first hurdle was having to like really fight to even.

Get a

And to state that it was, you know, my legal right? Part of the whole integration, three years, blah, blah, blah. And, um, so that was the first hurdle, but I felt like I can handle this, this hurdle. And then after that I was like, okay, now I'm really got my feet on the ground and they're running and I'm going forward. I studied hard and made friends that I could speak, finnish with, and practiced speaking, finnish, you know, with my husband's family. And I was like, okay, it's building, it's building.. So I like, up to that point I really felt like, okay, there's been some little hurdles, but I can handle it. I'm going forward, I'm learning. I really enjoyed the process of learning and I got my, my A two and my A 2.2 and got to the level three course? And it felt like, yeah, this is going along. And then, I was getting good feedback from my, from my teacher and she encouraged me to go do the Jki testi test, even though I didn't feel ready at that time. And she was like, you know, we pay for this for this first time.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And then I passed and that felt like a great achievement. And, and, um, yeah, it just felt like I was in my lane and I was going in the direction I wanted to and. I was studying at like ammattikoulu, I'd got into matkailu kurssi, a tourism course at Vocational College. . And I was like, okay, I'm really integrating now. I'm really using my finnish and just gotta go forward. And then I got really ill had to drop out of vocational college and, you know, couldn't work and couldn't really do hobbies in the same way. And it just felt like my exposure to finnish was dwindling. . And then obviously 2020 we have the pandemic. So just before that, I'd kind of started doing things a little bit again and feeling like it was getting better and then everything shuts down for a, for a while. So I really get that sense of just like, oh, it just feels too, too hard. But I just kept trying to. Tell myself to look for opportunities or make it a part of my every day. Even if I felt like it's not progressing or I'm not using it the way I want to, I just have to find a way forward. And maybe it will come to nothing, but in the meantime, I might as well use my, my time.

Right.

Find this way. So those were definitely the times where it felt like, oh, this is not going. . Going well or going easily, but

Yeah.

You know, ups and downs, like I say, you know?

Yeah. The next question, which I think you've already answered in the explanation was like, what was that going through your head during this period? But yeah.

Yeah, it was just sense of, real sense of like disappointment, failure, uncertainty, and then like, even like existential crisis in a way of like, you know, I've moved my whole life over to Finland and. And you know what, if this is all in vain, you know, you get this, start getting the black and white thinking. . um, but I would just try and like ride with it and be like, you know, emotions are a flow. Emotions are like water. They flow, they go up, they go down, they're like a tide. They come in, they come out. This is a, an ebb. There will be another flow, there will be another movement forward. I'm gonna do what I can, like, even if I'm like really poorly in bed and can't really go out anywhere, I'm still gonna try and have my daily routine as much as I can. So I'm gonna do a little bit of reading, listen to finnish music, watch some TV with subtitles, watch people k, and just go back to basics. If I couldn't do anything more, and then if I was feeling a bit more. Well, or a bit more motivated than open a textbook or practice something. And just bit by bit,

I really love the, the, the mindset that you have about, these kind of things. 'cause it's like, it's, um, it's a very resilient kind of mindset that you have. . It's just like, yeah, well this happened. Okay, well we keep it moving. That kind of, yeah. I really love that kind of mindset.

I just think, you know, life can be rubbish sometimes. So if we kind of go into it being like, you know, things might be rubbish, but let's just see it to something at the end of it,

as this

as it is. . You know, rather than digging myself into a deeper hole. I'd be like, nah, there's nothing out there.

Yeah. What words of encouragement would you have for anyone who has gotten fed up?

Let yourself be fed up. For a, but give yourself a time limit. You know, be fed up for an hour or for a day or for a week, whatever you feel like you need. Have a throw a tantrum. You know, jump up and down,

throw a tantrum,

cry, throw a tantrum,

yeah.

To feel that emotion completely. Yeah. Like, don't try and, suppress it because I think it will sometimes what we try and suppress can come back.

Yeah.

Stronger. So just feel it. If you just name it, talk out loud to yourself. But like, I am really fed up. I'm so fed up and I fed up because of this and this and this. Or write it down. Make a big list of all the reasons you're fed up and then put it in the bin or tear it up. Jump up and down, shake, you know, get the stress hormones out your body a bit.

Yeah.

Have a big cry. Once you've done that, 'cause eventually we all run out of energy of having a tantrum.

Right? Right.

You can only have a tantrum for so long.

Yeah. Yeah.

So once you've got that big emotion out, once you've really let yourself feel it and then you pick yourself up and go, okay, I've had my tantrum. Do I feel the emotion so intensely? . Probably not because again, it's this ebb and flow. And then think, okay, what can I do even though I'm fed up? Is there still something I can do? . I'm not gonna force myself to do it now. 'cause if it doesn't feel like the right time, like I say, you know, you might feel fed up for an hour a day or or a week, that's fine. But I just think you give yourself a cutoff and then you try something. . Regardless of feeling fed up and then have another tantrum if need to be.

Okay. Wow. And to our final question. How has your life become better now that you live in a Finland where you speak the language?

I think it's, it's become better in that sense of just feeling capable, feeling independent. I feel like I get new opportunities all the time, like the better my language skills have, have gotten, the more things things pop up. And that's really exciting. And, yeah, especially like in a work sense. . Like have, having, better and better level of finnish means that I can go for opportunities that interests me. That, I may be either wouldn't have thought I could do or just. Wouldn't apply for or wouldn't meet the criteria, or wouldn't even be looking for or wouldn't find because you have to be in a finnish language environment to see finnish language opportunities.

Right.

And they might be finnish language opportunities where you don't need perfect finnish, but if you're only looking at job adverts that are English,

yeah.

Even though you actually do have some finnish skills, then you could be missing a whole bunch of job adverts that say like, okay, basic level will finnish and good English is enough, but if the job adverts were finnish, that's not on your radar. And so definitely when I was only looking at jobs in English, it was such a narrow focus. And so now I just feel like, you know, I'm making more connections on LinkedIn or I'm going to more events or seminars or

mm-hmm.

Meeting other professionals and finding out about projects or services or, or just cool people doing cool things and finnish is the key because I'm in the loop.

Right. Yeah. That's brings us to the end of the episode and, uh, yeah guys, I hope you guys really enjoyed this as much as I have and that this helps you on your journey as as much as I hope it does. And, yeah, catch you in the next episode.