010: The Moment I Stopped Resisting: Learning by Lifestyle - Hamed

, I think it's, it is all in the mindset,

Just like accepting. Because before that, before I, I was thinking that I'm temporarily in Finland, I'm gonna leave. I don't wanna learn that. I didn't really try, but then before, um, after that the mindset changed totally. So I was like, I accepted that I am here. I don't know the language. It's a very difficult language. Of course, it bothered me because it was like. Really difficult.

Name,

Hamed

Age, the

Forty three,

forty three. profession.

current one is a software, , software engineer.

Software engineer,

yeah. .

nickname.

Nickname, . Billy Bill. I have

not heard this one before.

Yeah. The bil in, , in Farsi means What's, lapio in? ,

Shovel.

Shovel. Yeah. Means shovel.

I was gonna joke and say hoe.

No, no, no. Shovel. Yeah, shovel. So bil in Farsi means shovel. . So, , when we were kids, , my, my, my cousin took my ball and ran away. So there was a shovel beside the ball. So I took the shovel and I hit him. yeah, his head with the shovel, so, , that's why like the whole family would call me Billy after that. Oh

my God. Okay.

Thank God. He's fine.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, sometimes his, some, where did you hit him? Did you hit him on the head? Yeah. So that would explain why he behaves a little funny.

No, no, no, no, he's not, he's a great guy actually. Yeah we had a bit like yeah, Back, you know, back in my days, the childhood was a bit different.

Nowadays you would throw an iPad at the kid or something.

Yeah yeah,

But, , okay, so. Yeah, how I found my guest. Yeah, I've known Hamed for, since 2017 when we both started in Metropolia. . So it's been eight years now. Wow. It's long time,

is it? Yeah.

Yeah. 2017 now. Yeah, eight years now. And, um I, from the get go, I knew he spoke Finnish. I just didn't realize that he came here later. And then I, he loves telling stories, so one of the times he told about how he came here and I was like, oh, he came later. Like he didn't, 'cause his finish is like, like really, good.

I dunno about that.

It's, it's, take my word for it. Yeah. And So yeah, with him I didn't even need to do a, usually I have call with people that I'm gonna interview just to assess their English and then their finished to see their suitability for the program. . And, but with you, I like, I've seen you speak finished a lot and it's like, yeah. . And then also another thing was like, you helped me get, , one of my first jobs the consulting at the CGI.

Oh

yeah, there's a whole story there. There's a story there. . So yeah, he got paid for helping get me in and

bonus referral bonus,

referral bonus in a few thousands. And then he, I was like, Hey bro, gimme my share.

But I offered your lunch, right?

You bought me lunch. You bought me lunch. And you know, to fair, that's more than nothing. That's more than nothing. Yeah. But, okay. So just briefly, how does Finland show up in your life story? What brought you here and how long have you been in Finland?

absolute accident. yeah. Okay. You want the whole story?

Yes.

Okay. Um, long story short when we were a teenager, I fell in love with with a, girl in Iran, and then they moved out of Iran with a family. They moved to Canada. So, , I wanted to move to Canada as well. So when I turned uhh, , so I was thinking about leaving Iran, but then things happened and then there was this, Iraq Kuwait war, and then there was this, um, USA invading Iraq and stuff. And then, , I thought, okay, last time when there was this Iran and Iraq war, it took like eight years. And then, , if there is a war again between now that, , United States in, , America and then the political situation has never been good between Iran and America. If there's a war, I don't know how long it's gonna take, so it's now or never that I'm gonna leave. So, , as long as I heard the news about the attack so that night I left Iran and, , so about like 12 half hours between I heard the news and then, , I made the decision and I actually left. Yeah. ,

instant. Just like,

just instant. Yeah, because , I, I thought like it's, it's now or never. If I stay, I don't know, , am I gonna be, am I gonna be, , am I gonna have the opportunity to leave, , at all or in 10 years, or who, who knows? , That war never happened. But then I left anyways, , and the first place I could go was Turkey because I didn't need any visa or something. So I just, , from my, , from my hometown, Kerman, I went to, , Tehran and then from Tehran by train. I went to Turkey three days. Then, , yeah, and then there, , I sought asylum because, , I was, , Baha’i and the Baha’is are under, , high, , severe discrimination in, um, in Iran. . So, um. And that was also like one of the reasons, but , 'cause I didn't have like basic human rights basically, you know, I couldn't go to university for example. Oh wow. And yeah, many stuff like that. So, um, then I was about a year or something, , in Turkey, and I was prepared to stay much longer to be able to go to Canada. It was like a harsh situation. I didn't have any money and stuff. I didn't know Turkish language. It was my first time ever trip abroad, Iran. . And then, , yeah, I was alone there. So, , this happened at that time. Then Finland wanted to, um, basically, , wanted to accept I think about like 50 person or something, like immigrants to Finland. And I happened to be on that list.

5, 0, 50 people.

, fifty Five zero. Yeah. And

you made it into that list.

Yeah, apparently because, , because, , my name was in the un and then, , the UN basically decides if you, , are living like to, , to seek a a better place to live, to have your human rights. My application was in the UN and then, , I was, , prepared to wait much longer. 'cause I've heard that if I want to go to Canada , it, . Maybe like two, three years. I have to wait. Or actually, I, I didn't know it was everything that I heard because like I just jumped there in Turkey and let's see, let's figure out what's the next step. And then, , yeah, they told me that Finland wants like 50 cases and we are sending you there. And I didn't know anything about Finland. I just knew it's cold. And there's a bear here in the, in the woods.

A bear. Okay. Yeah,

bear. Yeah. So, um, and my grand aunt actually was in Finland. Like they have moved to Finland, like, I don't know, seven years ago something. . Yeah. And they were living in the northern part of Finland in Oulu. , so that's what happened. So I ended up basically in Finland.

That is wild.

Yeah,

that is, yeah.

Yeah. And that's why, , when I came here to Finland, , I remember I had absolutely no idea, like, . From Ankara I had a short shorts and a t-shirt like this that I, I, yeah, I go through plane and then we come to Helsinki and then , we don't leave the Helsinki airport. We go straight then to the Okay airport, and then there's like this much snow. What happened? Like did I like time travel to winter or something? . Yeah. Yeah. So, , yeah it was, by accident. Or by luck, destiny, I don't know. Yeah,

right. Hey, yeah. 'cause you know, from what I know of your life now, things are great or things

worked out, so I'm very grateful. I'm very thankful and I'm very happy with my life right now. .

He needs to say that because he's married now.

So that's also another

Canada, Canada girl is just history. Okay. He needed to say that. It's, yeah.

But not joking really. Yeah. . Yeah.

But, okay. And how, how long have you wait, so which year was this your arrival?

, I arrived in Finland 2004 March. . I think 22nd. Okay. Wow. It's very specific.

And, um, so right now it's been oh four, so it's been 21 years.

21 years. Yeah.

Wow. Okay.

Over,

. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow.

That's a long time.

That's a long time. Yeah. And, um, like, what prompted you to like start learning the, was there like a turning, turning point or like a specific need or.

Well, , basically I didn't want to be in Finland when I came here. I just wanted to leave. I thought, that's a mistake. , it's, a mistake. It's an absolute mistake. It was not in my plan. It's something went wrong and know everything has gone wrong and I somehow have to go back and or make a change. So basically the first years, I didn't even want to stay in Finland. I just was, , I was like looking for , any way to leave Finland. I didn't want to learn the language. I was like absolutely rejecting it. But on the other hand I found some finnish friends. So, , with them it was actually nice. And then, um. I was hearing Finnish and I was, I was not speaking it. I was trying to, okay. The funny thing is, when I was in Oulu

you, were in Oulu, maybe?

I was in Oulu. Yeah. And the funny thing is, , when I arrived, so I don't speak Finnish at all. I knew, , one word that in the UN they taught us and that was " Apua" means help. . So that's useful. And then, , I knew "Moi" and "Moi moi", like you say, "moi" like, hi, and then "moi moi" like, bye-bye. , That was it. When I went to shop, I wanted to ask something. , so, , naturally I start speaking English and then everyone answers back in Finnish. And then I was like they don't know English. Or then I see like, all the TV programs and stuff, or in English. So basically they should know English. And then when I talked to my friends, of course they know. I was like, I was thinking like, why they don't answer.

In English.

Yeah. So I accepted that. , and then I started learning finish at some point. Then, , when I went to shop and then I start finnish, but very bad finnish, and then they answer back in English. I was like, what happened? Like, like why couldn't you do that? Like, like last year ? . But I think, um, that's like the guess here. Like, , that's that's when you show that at least you try. . And then they also start helping you. But if someone comes here and is arrogant and I don't want to learn Finnish, and I'm totally rejecting it, so. If I was a Finnish person, I wouldn't see any reason to be helpful when, when he's not respecting my culture or my language and living in my country. And, , I wouldn't have any reason to basically help him and be helpful and make situation easier. But if I show some respect that I at least try to speak your language while I am living here, then I think, , the finnish person also sees that as, , okay, he's trying, and then they also try to help me. So if I think it's a two way relationship Oops. In that case,

right?

Yeah.

But but was there like a what, was the motivation to start learning it?

, the,

yeah, the

motivation to start learning.

Yeah. Well, was there a turning point?

Yeah. Yeah. The turning point. Lemme think about it.

Or a specific need that.

Well, it was when I. Decided basically it took me some year, , I think it was a one and a half year or something after I think 2004. In 2005. So what happened, , meanwhile, is that the girl I left, she actually then, , I couldn't go to Canada. So she came to Finland. We got married in Oulu. She went back to Canada. It didn't work. 2005 we divorced. Obviously we never lived together, but she had like two visits to Finland. Then, um, then it was all, , maybe. Settled for me that I'm going to be here. I still didn't want to be here because I was thinking like, I'm still in the midway, this is a temporary situation, . I'm moving to Canada. But after the divorce, then I was like, okay, so there is no Canada, I'm not going there and I'm stuck here. I was thinking, I'm stuck here. I have to be here. What should I do? I was still looking for a way to leave Finland, but , it was a bit more, say like permanent more feel, felt like a permanent, , situation than a temporary situation. And in meanwhile, in this like one and a half years, two years I have been, um, hearing Finnish, I, I've been in society, but then when I really started to learn Finnish, I think it was 2006 when I actually went to a course. To actually learn Finnish. When I was in Oulu while I was there there was this multicultural center and then there were two girls from the university who were studying, I don't remember exactly what but, they started very, they wanted to experience and then they started a very basic Finnish language. Like, hi, my name is Hamed, how are you? Something like that. These phrases for the foreigners who are visiting that multicultural center called the Toppelius Talo in, Oulu. And then that was maybe my first, , finnish language course that I took while I was in Oulu in 2004 or five.

So this is some Finnish people . Who are studying in to somewhere in Turku and then they wanted to do this Oulu multicultural, I'm sorry Oulu.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They wanted to do this project for them.

Yeah. It was there, the university project I think. So, , they had this for was we were like people from many different countries. So we were just learning, hi, my name is this and my name is Hamed and I'm from Iran, or something like that. Then the , first time I tried, actually what I have learned in Finnish was that there was this Vappu and then these girls invited me to go to Vappu with them. So we went to Vappu and then there was this, their friend and there was this guy and then say, Hey tell him, what you have learned. And I said " Moi, minun nimeni on Hamed", hi, my name is Hamed. And then the guy told me, frankly, that. You will get more respect when you speak more Finnish. I thought. Okay. Fair enough. That was very straight.

Yeah, very straight and very straightforward.

That was very straight, very straightforward. Yeah.

But, oh, just FYI. Just a general background at okay. '04 arrival. '05 marriage and then

again, '04 marriage.

'04 marriage. Okay. And then '05 divorce, and then '06 ish language. Like this decision,

'06 ish. I was, um, okay. At, um, , 2005 mm. I moved to Espoo. . Oulu was too too cold for me. . Like the first winter went literally to minus 37 degrees. So it was like, like my freezer was minus 20. Like, , yeah. Yeah. If I keep my food in my freezer is warmer than like outside. I was like, doesn't make sense. . But anyways it was too cold for me, so, , I came as south as I could. So it was Espoo and I mean, Espoo, I found actually my childhood friend in Espoo from Kerman, from same city when were teenagers, like we used to.

, no way.

Yeah, yeah. Accidentally.

Is it the same one you hit with the

No, no, no, no. That was my cousin. Okay. But, um, yeah. Yeah. I actually have another nickname. Hammer.

No, no, no. Oh, no.

But that's my son gave it to me.

Okay. Wait, wait.

Sorry. Really

first, I was like, your son gave it to you. Oh no. Is your son alive?

Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, he was little and he was just joking. I was like, hammer? I was like, ah, that's a good name. Let's just start, ? yeah, For a while I was Hammer . Anyways, , so I, I oh five, I moved to Espoo.

Okay. After the divorce?

Yeah. I got a house, um, apartment in, um, in Espoo. And then, , I, , thought, okay, this is it. I'm here. So what to do? Like, I started like accepting, okay, I am here. I have to do something about it. Before that, I was like, I'm leaving. I'm leaving. I don't have to think about it. I said, okay, I have to do something about it. So I went to this. työväenopisto, they had an intensive three months course, finnish course, which was for, , not very, not the beginner level, but a bit, , actually those guys who were in that course were a bit, , in a higher level than me, But I thought I, I'll give a shot because I, I've been here like one and a half years, something, maybe I know something. So, , I went to that course, it was okay, I could keep up. And, , then after that there was this, , Mava-koulutus like Maahanmuutajan valmistava koulutus I guess something like that from Diaconin opisto which took like one year. And with my friend who, with my childhood friend, . We went together actually to that one in Helsinki.

Okay.

So, ,

when, which year would this be?

I think it was 2006.

Okay, so in that same

until 2007,

seven, so in that same 2 0 6 you kind of accept, okay, I'm gonna be here. . Move to Espoo. .

Yeah.

Um,

Like in mid 2000, end of 2005 till 2007. Yeah. . Yeah.

All of these things happened there. Yeah. So except I'm here. . Move to Espoo. . Then työväenopisto three month course. Then after that you go to this Maava course at Diakonia

Yeah. Where there it was finnish language and it was also like other, like, it was like chemistry, physics, biology. So you get, um, familiar with the term, , terminology in that, . Yeah. And it was basically the course that, um, prepares you to go and study in finnish after that. Something like that.

Right, right. So for like university or whatever, you're gonna go study after that. But

yeah, maybe a bit more and more basic, not exactly the university.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

Like, , like ammatiopisto . Something like that. . Yeah, I skip most of classes

actually. Speaking of, speaking of, speaking of the classes, because from my personal experience, the courses only help so much. You still have to figure out how to use the thing and then use it a lot to get there. So how much do you feel like those courses help? . And in your case, you said you were skipping a lot, so what were you doing to kind of improve?

Yeah Okay. , I, myself, I think everyone is different. Myself, I think I learn, , through talking and hearing much, , better than reading. So knowing the grammar of course helps. But, , when I speak, , like back then when I spoke, , I was not, , mainly thinking about the grammar. I was just, , trying to remember what I've heard. So basically I knew that is it like "Parvekkeella or parvekkeessa", but I didn't know because of what rule. It's like I just know that this is true. , this is the correct form, but, um, I think everyone is different. I have seen some people that, , they read a lot and, , they actually study the grammar and stuff and they're like very good at it. For me, it was a bit different. And, , before all these courses, when I was in Oulu, this is actually a very important point, , when I was in Oulu, got to um, know another Iranian guy who had a finnish girlfriend. And his finnish girlfriend was not speaking English at all. And um, she was talking to me Finnish all the time, and I was with them all the time. And then she was talking to me Finnish all the time. And the one time I tried to explain to her through my friend that, , I don't understand anything that you say, and her answer was actually, her answer was something that just turning on a light bulb in my mind it was like, yeah, her answer was like, that's exactly why I was speaking to you. . Yeah. Because, , that's why if, you are, if you don't hear that if you are not in the environment, if you, , like separate yourself and isolate yourself and you are in the like, English atmosphere, of course you're not gonna learn it. . So, um, and then she was, yeah. She, was like, of course I have to talk to you. So you will learn. And that was actually what, what helped me. I think, , okay. I think it is not related to this one. Then we can also like, , go, , talk about that, how it helps. My friend's Finnish girlfriend. , it was in 2005 before I moved to Espoo. It was in Oulu Then when I moved to, , Espoo, then I started like going to this työväenopisto.

Yeah.

And I went there. I didn't learn, , maybe that much. I remember like my grammar, , teacher actually he was shocked when he saw my paper and he called me and said that you got one of the best, , scores in the class and you are the one who skipped the most of my classes. And, , anyhow, somehow this is working for you. Well, I talk with my friends and, , I just know that. It should be written like this. . Or this one from these, , options. This one is correct, but I don't know why, and I don't care why

my friend's girlfriend has talked my ears off, so I know what it's supposed to sound like. , that's, yeah. Okay. Okay. So this, but this is all in the, within the first three years. Um, . If we consider like your, at some point did you write the Yki test?

Yeah.

Which year was that?

No, , I just didn't take it, but I don't know. It was

You didn't do it?

No, I didn't do it. I took me like, , I think I did it 2018, 17.

Oh, so you did it really late. Is it, was it when you were applying for citizenship?

Yeah, when I decided to apply for Finnish citizenship,

Yeah. 'cause I, I know by the time I met you, 2017. You already spoke enough finished. And I think you applied later. You got you. You came later. So for you it was probably like very easy to, to do.

Yeah. It was easy. Yeah.

But, um if we were to go through let's try and go through a timeline of your learning. Okay. And then just kind of explain like what things you did and then which level they kind of pushed you too. And then maybe you took a break and then, or you didn't take a break. And then what other things?

So how I learned?

Yeah. It's just the, the, the journey. The, timeline and the journey of the learning. Yeah. So,

yeah. Okay. Well that's a bit, , unusual because I think like when someone moves to Finland, they start learning, but for me, because I didn't want to learn, but on on the other hand, I was living here, so it was like kind of, it was not that serious. . But anyways, , if we sum everything up In the very beginning, I remember I had a, I had a pen and. Paper, like, like a notebook, small notebook. And, , I was writing the frequent words that the, most frequent words that , I was sensing that I'm hearing this all the time. What is it? And then I was writing that. And I was trying to figure out what that is. And also I was writing down, , some situations that I want to be able to say something about this situation or something. I was writing the note and then I had to find out, , that, how to say that. Other ways, , after this that I have tried to learn was, , reading actually this, um, was it mainoslehti like, like the advertisements? Yeah.

In the post. The one that

Yeah, in the post. Yeah. Because they are usually like very short sentences and there's usually a picture of a product or something the context. And you could. Somehow, guess what they are talking about. So you could very easily find, because back then there was no internet or smartphone, or I had a dictionary, but the dictionary was like, it was useless because like I, I receive a letter and then it says like anything, it says vettä, and then you cannot find that in a dictionary because it's the partitive mode. And then it is vesi in the dictionary. So I couldn't like search the whole dictionary. There's no vettä. How can I find it out?

And there's no control F for you to use.

Yeah. There's no control F so it was basically useless for me. But, , yeah, these mainoslehti was something, um, this reading the ads and then that, , notebook and then of course like hearing, hearing and of course listening to music. Yeah. Because the music, it's rhythmic. Then you tend to remember the words much better when it's rhythmic. And, , yeah, I think I remember like the first finnish song I heard was, I think it was Antti Tuisku ,

so then that was a bit later when you started paying attention?

It was then 2004 when I was in Oulu. Yeah. . And then I showed this to , , my friend. . , This, , Finnish girl. She played some music, which I really liked. Some old Finnish music, , Tapani Kansa what was that? Sulle, which is, , it's a song about Finland like a patriotic song, but I really liked it. It's very slow. But then, , somehow in the, , like older music, um, like they are very, . You can hear basically all the words and it's like slowly pronounced. So it was also something that I really, maybe I think helped because I could, even though I didn't understand everything, I could, , sing with them. And, um, eventually I understood at some point what is, like, the whole lyric is about. So listening to music it, was good. Yeah.

So, the music already started at the beginning of the journey?

Yeah. Yeah.

At, which, so if, we were to use

it was 2004 till 2005, ?

Right. But if we were to go in year, like use the terms year one, year two, year three, by which year did you feel like, okay, I speak fluent, Finnish

fluent,

he's okay. You're gonna be modest and be like, oh, I don't speak fluent Finnish, but, , that I could manage. The level you are at now, how long did it take you to reach there?

That's difficult to say,

or roughly that level. Because I know in 2017 it was

Yeah, yeah.

This level already.

, okay. Two th Let me think what, what happened. Let's go like in timeline. This. is what, . So in 2005, I came here, I went to that työväenopisto. That was the, then I had to do this, , työharjoittelu , um, the, what's that? The practitioner in? Yeah. An internship, a practitioner. So one I did in, um, in a multicultural center.

The same one you were learning at?

Yeah. When I was learning in this työväenopisto in 2005. . , it was I think, , two weeks or one month, something in this multicultural center that was actually good because there we had customers, we had other foreigners coming in, and they had problem with the language. They had received a letter. Their, their son in the school had something and they wanted to figure out what it is, and basically. I was one of the people who, , felt responsible to help them. So I was like, , obliged to somehow find what is, is and help them. So it was, , I was under kind of pressure to do that. That was, and then the other actually, um, when I went to this, um, Diaconia opisto 2005, after that con the Continue Learning finnish I did, my internship is, , in a kindergarten. Okay. And that was actually, I think it was very helpful in learning finish because, , it's, , I think it's easier to make mistakes in front of children

because they don't know better.

Yeah. So basically you. You speak, just you speak more.

Yeah.

And you ask more. But with adults you have the ego and wanna keep up your image or something maybe. Which, , later on I found out it's very silly thing to do. But anyways, basically stopping me from learning, but I just have to accept that I don't which language, let's accept it and go on, let everyone know that I don't know it. It's fine.. Then, um, in the kindergarten when, , I had to read books for this and I remember one girl, I was like, I was with a 5-year-old kids and she brought a book and said. This is a new book I got. It is a really nice book. It's, , very interesting for us. And there are many new words for you to learn.

Wait the, kid was

Yeah. Brought me a book

hyping the book, like, . Selling you on the book.

Yeah. Giving me the book that, yeah. Just read this for us. . Yeah. We are very interested. And you will learn a lot of new, words. I was like, okay. That's nice. So, , so kindergarten yeah. Was a very good experience in learning, , finnish. And then children are talking about the very routine stuff and all the basic needs of human beings. So you learn that very fast from children and they, they tend to repeat everything, ? So, so you learn, , what else after this? So this is 2006. 2006. Yeah.

The työharjoittelut were In 2006.

Yeah, this was at 2005 end of 2005 to 2006 after that. Meanwhile I had been working in a restaurant in a pizza, but then I was speaking Turkish, , not finnish. You were working

in a pizzeria? That was like your, like your, like, where you were actually earning the like that was your, I don't know, nine to five or whatever. I don't know what that was. Your main work, the pizzeria one

No, , just weekends I was going there to do something. . Okay. Yeah, 2005 when I was in Oulu, and then when I came here, I also went to restaurant to, , because I got some, , , guidance from, from all my friends that, yeah, if, , you are here, you're from Middle East, you go to pizzeria. I, okay, let's do that. Yeah. Later on I, , found out that maybe that was not the best thing to do, but yeah, back then, um, I did that anyways. , good experiences from there also. Yeah. , it was not a waste of time anyways from anything that happens to, it is an experience. And, um, actually there in the customer service I, had to speak with the customer, so, , before in Pizzeria and then later on in, um, in the, , restaurant in Helsinki. Yeah. I had to talk with the customer and then of course I learned much more. , finnish. So this my learning process, it was not something that I was like concentrated in learning finnish. It was like happening while I was living in Finland. . Something like that.

So you, you you, were basically you, were living, but then the experiences you were having were such that they just pushed you to be learning finnish.

Yeah.

At the same time. Okay. .

Yeah. So, um, and then I was working in a, in a restaurant in board, and I could manage to talk to customer. So it's 2000, let's say nine I think, yeah. 2009. Basically, I didn't do that much to learn Finnish, but by 2009, yeah, I could speak Finnish, I think fairly, fairly good. Okay.

Okay. And around, I don't know if you know what the different CFR levels are? Like A B. Okay. Yeah. So it's, it's a little bit tricky. . But when you say you were good, was it such that you could you, could you explain difficult things with that level?

Well, it was that when I, for example, I could, , I was still struggling, for example, if I went to like, Kela webpage. Yeah. I wanted to, so the very formal finished language. . I still struggled to understand everything. . But the, um, normal conversations and managing my life, yeah,

you're comfortable.

Totally fine. .

Yeah. And then in which, so 2009 would be year, year four. So, and then which year did you, did you feel like you were able to just like, you could even explain more difficult concepts and stuff like that,

which year? Yeah. I didn't have any difficult conversations with No, no,

no. Not difficult. But you could explain okay, when did you stop having difficulty on like, Kela website, for example?

It was very difficult to, , say timeline about that because like, my, my, um, my surrounding, I had Finnish friends we communicated in Finnish of course. And, , I had also friends that we communicated in English. But then, , my work, , environment, so I was communicating in Finnish, English, Turkish, and Farsi all the same time. So it was a very mixed, and this was for a long time until 2014. That I actually started doing some, , sale, , some, some, um myynti, yeah. Selling sales. . Yeah. Some sales. , 2017, 2014 . Yeah. And that was when, I was supposed to speak, finnish in front of audience. And that was something that, , I was not familiar with. And I, I was very, I was very shy, I was very nervous, I was shaking. He's not a very shy person. . Inside I am. I, I don't show that very much.

Yeah he does not show that very much

But it was very difficult. And then, um. That was actually I think, one, one step that, because before that my communication was with the customer and I was like reading some, , well, I was mostly watching the Hollywood movies and stuff. They're all in English. . But the communication, um, of course I was like hearing the news and stuff, I could understand a little bit. . But in 2014 when I started like doing the sales and stuff I had to study for that and I had to, um, negotiate with people. That was also, that was something that, , it was a jump in my like finnish language skill because before that I didn't need to, um, try that much. . But then I had to, and then it was like suddenly different. Yeah. But, , if, , if we say like, when I felt like I am fluent. It was two, yeah. 2011, 10, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. But then if you're saying that the, 2014, were you speaking in front doing the sales thing in front of an audience?

Mm-hmm. ? Mm-hmm. Or for a group?

For what? What, yeah. What was the context of, is it like, was it like a work practice training kind of thing and you had to present in front of the class? Or, or, yeah.

Basically you have to present the product

in front of the rest of the, the other sales people.

Yeah. But there is a group you have to present the product. . And then like, go with everyone, start like talking or what are their problems? Would this product be helpful for them? And , yeah. That kind of stuff. Or even like, introduce yourself, who you are. Do a like a sales pitch stuff. . Something like that. This was, , this was something that I was not used to. And now I was very, . I was shaking first time I wanted to do that. And I did that the first time. I even had to introduce myself. Who am I, what I'm doing, where I come from and stuff. And then I remember in the beginning, I was just training, I was just, um, introducing myself to the group, , of coworkers or colleagues. And then I was saying like, , yeah, pardon of me for my insufficient language, finnish language. And then when I finished, I, one guy was saying like, it was awesome. Like why do you apologize? Like you speak. Very good. finnish. I was like, do I ? So, um, yeah, I think like, , the learning process, I, I cannot really, um, say what ha um, how happened because it was not, I didn't have like a focused learning process. . It was like happening in everyday life. It just kind of came.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it.

But okay, so,

okay. Alright.

Sorry, I couldn't like, give, give a like specific answer to that.

No, but like you've talked about this enough that I think people can grasp things from it. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it makes enough sense in the things that you okay. So in your case it's quite peculiar because you weren't like deliberately like, I'm trying to learn, finnish, but, um, oh, did you know, did you speak English well?

Yeah.

At which year? Or you already spoke English well before you arrived?

Yeah.

Okay. Because,

yeah, my mom was a, , English teacher. . And, um, she taught me English when I was a kid and then I also attended, we studied English in school. Yeah. I also in addition to that, I attended like English courses other than school myself. So, um, it was a. Fairly good enough English. .

And also at night, every time you woke up, you would be in Canada. So that's an English speaking country. right. Yeah. Okay. Because that's actually a a big blocker for people who move to Finland, that . They, know English. . So they default to English. . And then they don't like this situation.

That's pretty natural. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's very natural

They they don't,

because you think it's a language that everyone speaks.

Yeah. Yeah. So you just very easily default to it. . And then it does not allow you to grow, but then by, like, in your case, I don't know how you, how were you able to force yourself to not just default to English all the time? Was that deliberate or was it accident or like, what was the

Well, okay, , for, for example, for one of the close friends, yeah. She didn't speak English at all. . So I had to. Somehow force myself to, if I wanted to say something, I had to like say it in, um in and finish. . Or try to understand like what she's saying. But, um, then I, I think it was just like basically accepting, I think it's, it is all in the mindset,

Just like accepting. Because before that, before I, I was thinking that I'm temporarily in Finland, I'm gonna leave. I don't wanna learn that. I didn't really try, but then before, um, after that the mindset changed totally. So I was like, I accepted that I am here. I don't know the language. It's a very difficult language. Of course, it bothered me because it was like. Really difficult. But, meanwhile I try to, , get, have as much fun with it as I can. So I start like singing and I think later on I understood that chemically it also helps your brain actually to learn better. Like, when you enjoy something,

ah,

you have more dopamine. When you have more dopamine in your brain,

you can do more of it.

It helps, , your to feel good. It helps the memory and it helps the concentration. But when you are very stressed and you feel, , you have a negative feeling and you feel stressed, it, , you have more cortisol in your brain, which, , has a negative effect on concentration around memory. . So basically if you are trying to like strolling and reading and running it, it doesn't help that much. . Just try to have fun with it, . Yeah. I think that, I didn't know that back then, but that's what, , I try to do, like singing with it or making, making jokes, understanding the jokes or stuff. Another thing is, , since school, like when I wanted to remember some like, , chemistry formula or math, like formula something. . , I always try to attach it to something funny or something else so I could remember. I remember. So even with the words, for example, I wanted to, , say like, what happened or what's happening? So in Finnish, it's " Mitä tapahtuu", so I was, , I started like thinking of it, not it, , back then I was like watching a lot of gangster movies. I was like. It sounds like a gangster firing a machine gun. It's like, Mitä tapahtuu so it's very silly. Oh my God. It's very silly. It is not logically connected to anything, but Exactly. Because of that. You remember that

I, I'm not forgetting this one. Yeah.

It's like, yeah " Mitä ta-pah-tuu".

Oh my goodness.

Yeah. Definitely not forgetting this. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You, you will never forget it. Yeah. Yeah.

I, another one I heard was like that someone was saying like, , finnish words. Some of finish words are very funny. And then I was like, and like, what do you like giving an example? And then he was like, Lämpimämpi I was like, Lämpi. . mämpi. Yeah, it's, . Same word kind of repeating . And from that perspective. Yeah. And then you just never forget it when you, when you put things in that kind of, in that kind of way.

And another thing is Yeah. About this, so, because when you anything, like any event . But there is that you attach an emotion to it and it's burned in your memory. . So you get an emo you create an emotion about that. You, you have a laugh or something. Yeah. And the other thing is because of my mother tongue is Farsi. And in Finnish there are many words, a lot of words that in Farsi you don't just say it because they are like plus 18 words. Ah, every part of the body that beep. You don't have to say that. . Like every, when I came to Finland and, and um, many words are like this. And in a very rude way, like, , when you say those name of those parts in Farsi body, parts in Farsi, in Finnish, these are just normal words. so that's why that helped a lot because I could remember and. Yeah. But when I first came here and people were speaking Finnish, I was like, poof. Oh my God, what are they talking about? Really? Like, it's like that is also, it creates an emotion. It creates something that makes you remember it so yeah.

Wow. Okay.

But this helped a lot. The notebook helped a lot. . Um, writing the situations. . , that, I, I, wanna be able to say something about this situation or if I am in this situation. I was like writing them in English. . And then I was trying like, to find out someone, like could you please say like, how, how, how do you say that? Or if someone, what? People usually say that in these situations and, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So in your case, like things like integration is not even a question anymore 'cause you kind of integrated yourself like really well. And but okay, so what in the, a lot of my questions are based on. From the perspective, no perspective of like, somebody trying to deliberately learn. But for you, you just lived and then it just by the . By your lifestyle, it came to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, , what one question I had was like, what worked and what didn't.

Okay. Yeah. For me, the courses, the books, yeah. They didn't work. Okay. Back then, there was no Duolingo or stuff. . But then the courses for me, they didn't work. But learn listening to, , like I, I was listening. I, had a radio. I was listening to finnish, , news, even though I didn't understand. But this work, because, , first you just, , hear some sounds. Then little by later you started like recognizing the words.

Yeah.

And I think that's the process that the child learns. Like, because first they see some sounds and then they start recognizing what, and they say, okay, these sounds usually in these kind of situations, you hear these kind of sounds more. And then you start to, okay, these are words. And then that's what, so I was listening to news and I was listening to, , to music, actually. . And also there's a older Finnish music, which was very, it's like selkosuomi,

right? selkosuomi or

it, something like that. But because like if you listen to rap, it's very difficult to understand to, or to, , separate the words. But if you, for example, , listen Tapani Kansa, for example, some of the like more slow musics. . , it's much more easier to recognize the words . In that. Okay. So those things help a lot. Yeah. And also. Talking to people. Um, because talking to people is not that I. It has two benefit. I think that one is I get to practice what I know and as long as I know something, but saying it in the right situation is, is totally different. I, I know what I should say, but do I say it by my muscle memory? . It's totally different thing. You have to say it. , so many times as long it becomes your muscle memory. .

That was what I was trying to overcome in 2022 when I decided to . 'cause it's like you

don't have to think about it.

Yeah. I don't want to be thinking before. 'cause especially if I want to tell a joke.

Yeah.

If you're saying something and then have a quick joke to make.

Yeah.

But the time I'm done thinking you're on to the next thing, it's Yeah. I want,

that's one. That's one of the most harsh things that like, you see that in your own language. You are a clown. You can say anything, but then you come here and then you try to translate that, and then you explain it with like insufficient words and then it ends up in a weird silence moment. Like,

I know i'm good. I know I'm good. This,

I know I'm good, but why is not working? Yeah. It's just so you have to accept that, Hey, I don't know how to make a joke. Let's just learn this language and then eventually you can.

It's Yeah,

that's true. That's true.

Yeah. , Resources that you used. I think, I don't know if that's so relevant in your situation. And then,

yeah, there was this, , mainoslehti

Yeah.

That I used as a resource because, um, yeah, because you they tend to have picture, you know, the concept. They're really short sentences or just words so you know what they are explaining. So it helped a lot. And then my notebook that, um, I try to write

the words you have heard alot.

Yeah. Resources. What else? Yeah, radio and music. . Oh, and when I got, actually, then I bought a DVD player back then. , yeah.

Back in those days.

Yeah. Before that, I always watched the movies with the English subtitle. But then I shifted them to finnish subtitle. Okay. And that helped a lot because I understood the concept. I saw the movie. And then my eyes also like started like getting familiar with the words. And sometimes I even, like, of course, in the beginning I really had to pause all the time because like, they're like long words. And then, um you, can't just like, , read them like that. . But yeah, the subtitle also helped. Okay.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Well, were there any that surprised you with how useful or useless they were? The resources that like that or at least

the resources? . dictionary. It was useful.

Useful.

Sorry. Useless.

Useless. Okay.

It was useless. Yeah. , I hated it.

What observations have you made about other people learning?

Observations.

Yeah, just other people learning. It could be positive, it could be negative. Any just free flow. ,

That why they learn or why they don't.

Um, just about when people are learning what it is. Maybe something that you think that is good, that is like, , you've observed like, oh, this thing works or is a good thing, or this thing is not a good thing. ,

Okay. I think if we all the time think. If I all the time think about how hard it is, , I basically set my mindset somehow in the back of my mind that it is hard and my focus with, , goes onto that and it has a negative effect on my learning. But if I just accept it like one time, okay, let's, let's, , I should sit with myself and then, okay, it is hard, but I'm going to learn it. . So let's just do whatever I can. And then I start like, I stopped nagging in my own mind. Yeah. About that. I just started. And when, when I feel tired, okay, just leave it alone and then continue again. Let's just make peace with that process. Not like nagging every day when you start. I think that has a very, very negative effect on learning in instead of that start like having fun with it. Like, or, and whenever you can do something just like, um. Celebrate, feel good about it.

Right.

I think those have a really, really, like in, in fun moments when you are with friends in those moments, when you start to, um, when I start to, um, use that language I think, , it creates also, , good feeling about the moment. And I think that helps, , a lot in remembering words. Everything else that I, I hear around that subject I have been talking about.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, But from your experience when people don't succeed at learning Finnish, what has usually been the reason?

Personally, I think the most important thing is the mindset. If you hate Finland, if you hate the culture, if you hate the people, if you hate the weather, if you hate the food, why would you learn? Why would, in, like your, mind would have, would be any part which would want to learn the language? I mean, um, I think when I, in my mind I don't, people don't accept being in Finland and they have like kind of a very conservative and they want to isolate themselves. So I think that would have a very, negative effect. And then instead of that, if we try to, get, to know the culture and start like enjoying it, like make, . Make a lifestyle out of it. I remember when I was a, I know that we have little time, but, , that I remember from my childhood, , there were the, when there was a Czechoslovakia, um, they were this ABB from Czechoslovakia building a power plant in Iran. And my dad was working with them. And there was this guy who, , Czechoslovakian guy who wanted to try everything exactly how the local are doing it. And back then it was like very strange for me because when I, when we had them as a guest in our home, , I see like they, um, tend to, um, do stuff in their own way. But this guy wanted to know exactly how we are doing it and wanted to learn that. And, , I, I had that in my mind and I think it helped because when I came to Finland, I also started like to. To learn the culture. Okay, I'm here. Yeah. Let's see. , what is the food? Yeah, what is the culture? What's the music? And, , how people do that. And I think somehow you feel somehow part of it, but if you all the time in your mind, like, feel isolated, this is something strange. I think, um, my mind is not very willingly wanting to learn. So I think that that has a very, maybe not so obvious, but I think it, it has some effect.

Right. Okay. Are there any surprising or unconventional things that you did that other people might not necessarily think of? So, for example, . One thing I've heard is one guy, he used to go to the club at night. . When people who are finnish, are drunk and he would talk to them. . 'Cause they'll speak to you. . Another person would like buy people lunch during his paternity leave. For like an hour spent.

I might have gone to bar and talk to Finnish people when they were drunk, but my purpose was not to learn. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think I just, lived my life. That's all . ,

Yeah. 'cause you didn't make any like, okay, I'm doing this to learn finnish, so it's a bit No, no. Yeah. No. Okay. But this is like, as a lifestyle then this is really good. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. just, I mean, , okay. What I did which I think is very, um, is not very. Special. But, , even when you cannot communicate in Finnish, still try and learn it. It, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if you, if you sit for half an hour with friends who speak Finnish all the time and you don't understand shit, it's okay. You are still learning. You don't even know it. Yeah. So accepting this situation and not try to like, turn every situation into English and something that you, 'cause you, you are in a learning process, but you don't know it. You cannot. Yeah.

Okay. And, Okay. Let's do a rapid fire. Just, like, , I see that you just list it out, what it things. Okay. So if there are six parts to learning a language . Just go through them and you can just tell me how you handle each part.

Okay. Okay.

So let's start with speaking. What things did you do to improve your speaking? To go from zero to where you are?

Talking to customers talking to friends listening to radio, , listening to music. Yeah. That's,

and, and then what about the earlier parts when you had when your finnish was really weak? How were you like practicing speaking?

Practice speaking? I try to say as much as I can, like "moi", if that's all I get. Or "Mitä kuuluu" or just, just the normal chitchat talk. I, try to, that was in my notebook, the normal, very normal chitchat talk or, , "Hyvä joulua", something like that when I was like sitting in a bus. I was leaving the bus, I was saying like to the driver "Hyvä Joulua" or something like that. Like these very normal thing. Like just not to isolate myself somehow, try to in, . Go into the culture as much as I can that, that much I can say, okay, let's accept it. It is fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay then how did you practice the listening comprehension?

Listening and

listening comprehension, like listening? How did you practice that?

Listening to music and to the radio Sometimes, very rarely. Some finnish movies also I watched. Okay. But, , and also, um, being in a situation with finnish friends. That, um, didn't force them to speak Finnish to speak English with me. . Just being around and then let them talk to me and, , let them talk around me. . So, so I can, I know the situation I'm there so I can grasp words much, , more easier than, , when I'm not in that situation. Yeah. And then also

the whole thing about just listening to things, even if you don't understand and it's letting it grow on you. And then with the grammar, how did you practice the grammar?

Okay. I had to in school then read some grammar. I just did that with the books, from school. But, um, that's maybe like half of that. I did it, but, um,

but that came a bit later.

That was that, that came later. That came in 2006. Yeah. .

Because yeah, I think initially what you said was that, um. You focus on just the listen and the speaking part. . And then let grammar, Just came in a bit later. . And then with reading, how did you practice that

reading? . The first, it was the, , the ads the paper ads, then, the subtitles in the movies. It was real late, I think it was in 2000, maybe 14, when I read actually my first book in finnish before that I didn't even read any finnish books. But, yeah.

Then with, how about with writing? How did you practice that?

With writing, , I didn't need to, but what I did practice was in 2006 in school, what I had to write. As for, my school homework and stuff, but, , later on when I was really actually for, I didn't, other than that, I didn't practice writing very, yeah. Especially, but when I was in, , working in 2020, then I had to write documentations for what I'm doing. And, , it was, , related to government projects. So I had to write totally in finnish. So, , that was also something that really helped me to really jump to a next level because I was really forced to do that. I had to put a lot of,

so it was difficult to do

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. At the beginning, because before that I, hadn't really practiced that. . Other than school. . Yeah. So I used the Google translator, , and Google. .

Yeah. And so basically, so I'm getting from the gist of your, your stories. You kind of were surfing the wave of life, just letting it take . You to the finnish.

Exactly.

Okay. Okay. And then with vocabulary, how did you increase your vocabulary, especially at the beginning?

In the beginning I told you the notebook was very important. Like the, word that I frequently heard. . , I wanted to know what they mean or the situations that I wanted to know. Um, what words should I use in this situation or specific objects. I wanted to know their name. . Um, I wrote them down. That was the vocabulary part.

Okay.

Okay.

Tell me like of the times you found it most difficult to kind of keep learning.

Most difficult To keep learning.

Yeah. The times that you found it really difficult to kind of keep going. Were there like any super embarrassing moments or where you just kept trying and then something was just, it just wasn't coming or,

yeah. When I wanted to translate my jokes.

Ah, yeah.

I couldn't.

And knowing you like this guy, every second sentence,

it, it was a pain is a joke. It was a pain. Yeah.

Every second sentence he has is, is like a joke.

So, but but, then, um yeah, in the very beginning it, the start was very, like, , very hard. Like when I actually went to the course and then the other people there in, in the intensive course, they were a bit like, um, more advanced than me. And I felt like, am I ever gonna learn this? And, , it was very difficult for me, but I said, let's just finish the course. Let's see what happens. And by the end of the course, I felt much better. Okay.

Okay. What words of encouragement would you give to someone who has gotten fed up with trying to learn finnish,

trying to learn finnish . Who's fed up? . My fellow Finnish learner finnish language is actually not that hard. When I was coming here, I saw a 5-year-old kid speaking it.

So, can you,

so you, no, um, , okay. Okay. The thing is, , it is hard. It is hard, but it is a language and people are speaking it here. So, , if you. Somehow get a grasp of life here, you'll get a grasp of the language. I, I think that way, like if I just move to the culture, I get interested about the culture that would come much easier to me than I want to be totally separated. I just want to get that part of the culture, which I, think that would be much more difficult if I set the whole environment around me and in my mind about the Finnish and Finland and the culture. Learning the Finnish language I think would be much more easier. Um, yeah. And then, yeah, it is hard. It is very hard. , I agree. I agree. It's very hard, but, um. Just try to have fun, I think, with it and try to not so focus so much on the grammar. Try to, um, focus on expressing yourself something. I forget to say that, um, something that helped me to get much more fluent with the Finnish language was in my relationship with actually with my, my life partner because, um, she forced me to express my feelings and, , feelings is something that I totally know what it is.

And that sounds like an alien trying to tell you guys.

No, no.

I'm one of you. I really know what feelings are.

Yeah, Like, like feeling is, is I feel it. . So. If I can explain that. So, because some things that you don't really know and then you, but feeling is it is yours and talking about that you can come up with, you can try to explain that because you know exactly how it feels. If something you don't know, you want to explain it. But then, okay, maybe that doesn't where you try to explain it the other way, but you don't really know how to but the feeling, you can try to explain it in many ways. And that was, , I think one of the, one of the key, , um, factors of getting to a much higher level in, in speaking finnish than, , yeah, talking about the feelings and expressing your own feelings and trying to do that really, I think like that helps a lot.

Okay. Yeah. I. In what ways has your life become better now that you live in a country where you speak the language?

In Iran also, I lived in a country where I speak language.

Here we go again.

What kind of question is that,

how has your life become better now that you live in Finland? Where in the Finland, where you speak

in Finland,

you speak the language. . Your jokes. Your jokes. Yeah. Someone loves my laugh at my jokes. Percent. Um, yeah, it's, , I, I, I feel, , much more, I think people in Finland, they appreciate it much, much more when you speak the language. I, I think I, I would do that in the same way in my language. If I was in Iran and someone moves to there and actually puts an effort on learning the language, I would love that.

And I think, , you will get that kind of reaction from the , , Finnish people, , when you actually. Speak that you, you show your, you don't have to speak it perfectly. You show that your effort, you show that you, you put effort on it that is already respected.

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is all we have the time for. . And, , thank you for tuning into this episode of, of how I Learned, finished with, and I really hope you guys got a lot from this. I hope you got a lot from this. And, , yeah. Tune in for the next one. .​.