009: This One Shift Made Me Fluent in Finnish

In reality was that there was only one thought in my head, and that was that I will never be able to speak Finnish. Never like, I cannot do this. I, this is not gonna happen I think that to get comfortable, I had to first get very uncomfortable and understand that I don't want that feeling. So I was motivated by discomfort of that, of these initial interactions, So if you're trying to be perfect, that will eat away at the freedom that you have when you're being imperfect. This is why I allow myself to sometimes just carry through the conversation, even though I've not understood something or something

All right. Welcome to this episode of How I Learned finnish with Ohe. Today we Have a very special guest that I ran into and almost eluded me, but I managed to convince her to do this episode. And, , I, yeah, we're gonna do a quick, like a quick fire, just few questions at the beginning. And, , so name

Kseniia,

age

27,

profession

Musician/Singer

And do you have a nickname?

, no, just my name.

Just name. . Okay, lovely. So, , how I found Kseniia am pronouncing it correctly?

Yeah, Kseniia.

Okay. Yeah. So how I found Kseniia I was asked to, I asked my friend who was hosting a, who was organizing a, this program called Splashform for, student entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship, societies of universities and stuff. And I asked if I could be the stage host and boom, just like that. I was a stage host for an event. First time I was doing that and I was talking to Peter Vesterbacka . . I was, I trying to talk to Peter Vesterbacka , because I needed to film a video with him. . Because my other stage, the other stage host said, said how, he told me how he operates and I need to, and then I was trying to go talk to him, but I'm like, damn, there's somebody else already talking to him. , but I had to, but I had to insert myself into the conversation somehow. . So I just came there and I started talking to both of you. . As best as I know how, without coming off as rude,

I, I didn't notice that. I did not see that.

Oh, that's good. That's good. That means I pulled it off. Yeah. I just turned to converse without making you feel out when I was making him feel any. Kinda like rudeness or anything. And then. I mentioned the thing that I'm working on, this kind of project and that you said that you've learned finnish as a, you've learned finnish. And I was like, wait, when did you come to Finland? You were like 18. I was like, oh, jackpot. Because that means like you came here as an adult and you learned it as an adult and which makes you like perfect candidate to be interviewed for this. And that's how I, that's how I found you and Yeah. Almost lost you at some point because I had to go make a video with him. But, , yeah. But just briefly, how does Finland show up in your life story? What brought you here and how long have you been in Finland?

So, I've been here since 2016. I came here when I turned 18, fresh out of high school. it's been nine years. It's gonna be 10 years next August. Originally the idea of coming to Finland to study came from my desk mate. I had a desk mate, Olga, shout out to Olga if you're watching. In, back in high school in St. Petersburg where I grew up sister, her older sister same, the same thing, business in Mikkeli . So when, , I don't remember the name 'cause they changed the name of the university, but it was Mikkeli and then Olga decided that she wanted the same thing. So she talked to me about that a little bit and I was like in denial at first because I did not understand the value of that in my life. I, generally speaking, I didn't understand what I wanted to do at all. I was just burnt out, like many people are in high school. then I went to a study fair with loads of different universities, both local and foreign, and then a, , spokesperson of, , a language school came to my mother to talk about different opportunities because I think he kind of noticed that she was maybe a good candidate for that kind of, , educational relationship. This is like really weird. But he literally, the, the CEO of that language school saw my mother and he was like, do you want your daughter to study abroad? And she was like, let's talk. And so they talked and then I started an English class with them to pass IELTS and then after IELTS went to another class at the same language school preparing for the entrance exams to Finland. So by the time 2016 rolled in, I was already with, , my English certificate, getting ready for all the things. And then in 2016 I got accepted after the entrance exams and I ended up in Jyväskylä. And I went to JAMK for four years after that.

Right, jyväskylä. Just out of the, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But that was a conscious decision that wasn't random.

Okay.

Because I wanted to go to university, which would have the EPA accreditation so that I would, if I were to get good marks, this would make it easier for me to study masters at I'd say any kind of other top European university. And back then I, I assumed that I would be studying my masters in England because I wanted to live there. So, , yeah, JAMK was one of the only universities, not the only one who had that, , kind of a batch of approval. So I wanted to be there. Plus it was really far away from Russia, so it's right in the middle of Finland literally keski-suomi. So, , that was my idea behind it, is that I would be far away for it to be a proper finnish experience. . And I would also be getting quality education that would then set me up for success in the future after these four years have run out, regardless of where I choose to go.

What sort of vision? Can you?

So I started studying international business. It was A BBA . Program. And yeah, my goal with it, I guess back in the day was, , just to get some general scope of what it is, you know, the world of international business management, kind of cross-cultural communication because I didn't really have any concrete idea of what I wanted to be afterwards. I mean, I, I, I knew where I wanted to be because originally I, I dreamt of living in, in England and I thought that during some, somewhere during my third, fourth year, when you go and exchange and you get your practical training, then I would end up there funny job in England and just stay there for the rest of however long. , and that's spoil it. That didn't work that way. Although I did live in England for half a year as part of my study exchange. came back afterwards. So in, in 2019, I came back. So I did a little bit of a break in these nine years. It's fair to say that I haven't been here full nine years because half a year I did in France, I lived in Cannes where I did my practical training. So in 2019, I came back in October and , I stayed for the better,

you said something about local foreign universities and local universities, but local, where were you living before?

, before I came to Finland I lived in St. Petersburg. So I, this is where I went to school, went to high school. This is where I graduated from, and then went straight off to Finland. So, because by the time I was finishing high school, , when I was 17, I'd already decided couple of years before that that I would be going to Finland. So this preparation process took me two years since I turned 16. So since 2014, which is where I passed, is it 2014? I think it is. Where, which is where I passed my IELTS then preparation course one year and then go into Finland. So by 2016 I was already. Completely on track of going abroad. And I might as well just said I did not have plan B, so I decided wholeheartedly that I will be doing this. And I did not waste much of my energy on, any, any other things like entrance exams to Russian universities. I did not, it was a very risky move, which would become my signature move later on. I dunno if it's fortunate or unfortunate, but I kind of chose that life where I would just be like, I've decided and I think I'm just gonna do it. And thankfully I managed to pull it and, , I'm, I'm still here quite lucky, but maybe also hardworking. So that's a combination of two

certainly.

Yeah. So I've decided to just go, go to Finland at some point, , with the information that I had about me, about my future, and about my kind of ambition, and I just did it.

Right. So in your case, when you arrived in Finland, you did speak english.

Yes, I had a, , so 6.5 band IELTS would be B two, probably B two maybe. I thought that I had it better, but IELTS said 6.5, so it's just assumed that this was as bad as it could get, which is a B two. But I was already fluent by the time that I arrived to Finland. Even though like accent, pronunciation wise, it wasn't as consistent as it is today because obviously, you know, I was younger and, , yeah, I did speak fluent English. spoke almost no finnish. I did go to a very short proprietary course in Finnish, , in summer of 2016. So that is one month after I turned 18. And before going to Finland, I went in the same language school. I attended a Finnish language course, which I kind of just. I was really reluctant to any, study at that point. I was just I did not wanna do any, any further reading, any further learning, any further kind of homework. I was more concerned my personal life at that point than with any kind of education. So I just kind of sat there, tried to make sense of it. , and then when I actually arrived to Jyväskylä, this was a whole different setting, a whole different story. And I obviously did not learn, finnish well enough to sustain a conversation or understand people or anything like that. So I spoke English for the, for many years ahead, I wanna say until 2019, where I actually decided to pick it up. Again, because in 20 20, 20 16 where, , I would start my studies, I, at some point, since I found it rather boring to study the same basic things, , I asked the teacher if I could just skip it for a while and then come back for the exam. I passed the exam and this is how I passed level one. And then for the level two, I think I kind of strung along with some of my friends who were better, you know, when it comes to language learning or just finnish in general, better interested, I guess. And I was just, I would copy some homework. I would, you know, try to pass by through the exams and I think I got like a three or something. So it was really miserable in terms of like actual learning because I, I never really thought that I would need it. I never really had that goal in mind. , becoming a, , finnish speaker was not on the radar in 2016, not even 2017, this wasn't something relevant because I assumed that I would be. My destiny would lie in the uk and I would be preparing for that, for the next, since 20 16, 3 years, because in 2019 I actually got to be there in exchange. Yeah.

Right. Wow.

So at the beginning, the situation is dire. It's rather, finnish is rather absent, even though I started learning it. . I kind of put it on the back burner because it wasn't my highest priority.

A lot of people have the thing with like, yeah. If they know English to begin with and then they don't also have a goal of like, I'm going to be in Finland for a long time. . Then it becomes very difficult for, like in my parents' situation, they were like, oh, we're only gonna be here for a while. A while turned into 20 years.

And that makes sense.

Right.

And that makes sense.

But then for people who have like a thing where they're like, I'm here. Good for the long haul, they usually, so I'm I'm, it's quite fascinating that you started with like, I'm not here for long. And then at some point you just switched it to okay, I'm going to do this. . And make it happen. .

Yeah, exactly.

So. 2016, you arrive. 2019 is when you decide to actually start learning. And especially with having come in, not with the idea like, I'm gonna be here for a long time. What prompted you to learn the Finnish language? Was there like a turning point or a specific need that pushed you?

what pushed me to actually restart learning finnish to pick it up again, was the fact that after fulfilling my childhood dream, which was living in the UK and coming back to Finland, I went to a little bit of a crisis trying to reestablish my values, trying to reestablish my goals for the future. And I've landed on something that I would call a search for home of like an identity search question. And I realized that I'd like to try and make Finland my home. I'd like to try and, and you know, it's. It feels weird to say, but to become a Finn. And, , I'd like to learn Finnish and see where it gets me if I can even learn it, to a point where I would be a certified Finnish speaker where I would get, , YKI testi results to, to a certain level, which would be middle, you know, B one at least. And yeah, so in, in, , autumn 2019, I decided that I'm going to seek classes. So I started looking for a teacher. I found a private teacher through my, , university classmates. A mother of one of my friends. She, she used to teach, finnish, and I think she still does. So kind of a elementary finnish the first couple modules. , and we started with her and that lasted for about a year or so. And then after her, I, I went on to study with her teacher. So the teacher of my first teacher. , became my own teacher and we started doing like deeper studies of finnish. So we, , progressed from just the, , Suomen mestari book, which is like the basic one into some of the other materials and conversational finnish. I picked up some marathons. I think I did some intensive courses as well independently, so I just kind of wanted a more comprehensive study, but it's always been private education with Russian speaking teachers and that has been what I got used to and that has been really helpful to me. That has been natural and, , I, I think I did the, the right thing. It was the right choice for me, but it was obviously, you know, if you compare it to education at university, it's a whole different thing and it's really. I think it's up to each person, how they choose to study. So I wouldn't really say that you need to go find yourself a Russian teacher, but it worked for me. So I studied home and we just called each other on, you know, whether we had Zoom, WhatsApp, and, , with the books that I was provided, I just kind of did it all like that.

So it's a very, very random, , kind of, , I've never heard of this one where like, I wanted to make Finland my home. least not in that sense. 'cause usually, I don't know what your life circumstance is actually, but, , usually if it's been a situation where somebody's moved here because their partner lives here, or one of my guests was like, she got married to somebody who's finnish and then she moved here, so she's going to be living here. And then another one was, , Anita she's had kids with a finnish person, so she's gonna be here. There, there's like, there's something that I see like, okay, this is a reason to try and make Finland your home. Specifically, why did you wanna make this our cold, Finland, your home?

So, decided to call it my home. I've decided to call Finland my home. First of all, we need to, we need to sidetrack a little bit. Okay. , it's not that cold to me because I'm from St. Petersburg. So the climate, , of Jyväskylä is not that bad. It's not a, a far departure from where I grew up in, it's

far from me very far from

I understand. I understand. So rainy, snowy, , slushy, , gray all of that I was very much used to, and that was not something new to me at all. But then again, culture wise, yes, of course, Finnish culture was something that I'm. That I was experiencing daily as a child. I did go to Finland often on, , shopping trips with my family, which is a customery thing. Used to be a customery thing couple of years ago, , for Russians to go to Finland to buy some things like, fish and, , washing liquid. And we would just go here to, well, you just get in the car. You, you, you go to the nearest Lidl or whatever you have there by the, by the board. And you, you buy stock up and you come back home and you cook up a good dinner with the, , the fresh ingredients that you go from Finland.

Fascinating.

And then obviously there are still finnish, finnish goods shops in St. Petersburg because that is what people like. It's, finnish quality is appreciated abroad. So yes definitely. I mean, and I've traveled to Finland before as a member of a choir when I was, , seven, eight. Fin has left a very prominent mark on my. Imagination. I, I, and I felt something special coming from Finnish people. I thought they were very kind, very open, curious much softer than the Russians, but I don't really wanna compare. And that was a motivating force for me to try and explore that further and try to understand if it's something that I, I would fit in. So the, the values of Finnish society gradually became apparent to me, and I gradually understood that this is something that I appreciate. This is something I want to be part of. And, , later on I want to become one or as one.

So choir, so you, like you sing.

Yeah. So of course being, being a singer from the youngest stage and, , having sung in several choirs been here twice. Once with my music school choir, once with my. grammar school choir. And in both of these cases we traveled to like a festival. It's hard to remember now 'cause it's been 20 years. But yes, essentially, so I've been to Finland a couple of times prior to coming here full time. And then we'd also somewhat often we would travel to shop at the lappeenranta shops. That would be the, which is a very common experience to someone who lives in St. Petersburg or anywhere in the, , territories that are surrounding the, , the border. Yeah.

Fascinating. So in your learning journey walk me through like your learning journey. What things worked and what didn't.

So in my learning journey, which was very complicated, one thing that hasn't worked all that well was. Practice. So at first I think I wanna talk about my first experience actually practicing Finnish. . Which was very traumatic, but I also learned a lot from it. , so by practice I mean going out there in a, in a, in the wild and speaking to Finns, in Finnish and trying to sustain a conversation that would not be pre transcribed or somehow pre-prepared. . My first interaction that I had fully in finnish was a visit to the library in early 2020. So in January or February, 2020, which is just three months after I'd, I'd picked up Finnish again. I was sent by my Finnish teacher to practice at a library, at Jyväskylä Library, and my goal was to find some simple children's book to read, simple finnish, and try to kind of comprehend what was written down. I remember walking into a library to, to the information desk and trying to strike a conversation. And that did not go well because I was misunderstood. So instead, the person tried to show me where the book was. So we went up the stairs to the second floor and she kept asking me questions and I could not understand what she was saying. So I was struggling immensely at that point. I was already shaking by the time that I went to the library because obviously it is an anxiety inducing thing when you're trying to speak a language for the first time, actually, like speaking with like, no help, no work on your hands. And so she kept talking and trying to understand what I wanted and if the box that she was showing me were good for me, but I could not comprehend what she was saying. So I just kind of started to go backwards a little bit and I was like, thank you. This has been useful, this has been good. I'll keep in mind what you tried to say. Thank you. And I just ran away. So I ran. I ran out of the library and, , I remember I wanted to start crying, but I was obviously in a public space, so I, I tried to hold my tears back. I went to catch a bus. I got on a bus. I went back home. And as I was going home from the bus station, I remember I called my mother, and that is where I started crying because it was immensely difficult for me to handle my feelings at that point. What I felt in reality was that there was only one thought in my head, and that was that I will never be able to speak Finnish. Never like, I cannot do this. I, this is not gonna happen because this is so hard to understand. And then to say something back. And there is so much that goes into a conversation like this, and this was probably the first time that I've ever experienced such a thing because I've spoken English since I was a child. My mother started teaching me English at the age of two, and even before that, she. Spoke to me in English. So I've never had an experience nor as a child, nor as an adult trying to sustain a conversation in a foreign language, a truly foreign language that would be completely foreign in a, in that way if, if you compare finishing English. So that was, , traumatic. And then I cried for a little bit with her on the phone. Then my flatmate came back home, and I think we've, we made sense of it, of the interaction, but it, for a while, it used to, it left a scar on me.

Your, your flatmate was somebody who spoke Finnish?

Mm. I wouldn't say that. But he also studied Finnish. All of us went to the compulsory Finnish classes at the university. So at some level we all spoke Finnish, but it wasn't, he wasn't a fluent finnish speaker, so he was just another Russian St. Petersburg friend of mine. And, . We made sense of it and try to kind of stop the crying and try to, try to calm it down. But that, that was, , that was a very memorable experience.

I can I, yeah, I can imagine it. , yeah. And usually when you start doing something and then there's this kind of a feeling that you experience with it, it makes it like something that's already difficult become even more difficult because your reflex feeling towards it is like, it can hold you back. Yeah. So it's quite remarkable that you somehow managed to turn the ship around and, ,

yeah, I did. I did. Surprisingly, or maybe not surprisingly so, but it was a lot of work to go from that experience into. I wanna try again, and I'm gonna try again. I don't remember what was my second or third. Maybe it was going to a cafeteria. Maybe it was joining my friend free, like a language group or something, talking to another language learner. But, , nothing quite as striking as my first visit to the library. That was something.

So the initial time of trying to practice did not, was one of the things that did not work for you?

Yeah, it did not, as, as, , as well as just going and trying to just, just do it, just speak to people. At first it was very hard for me. Every time I would come back home, I would have to write it out in a diary. I would have to talk to my teacher and it would be like an event in my life where I would have to document it because it was that challenging for me to try and speak. Even though by that time I would be like A two. So it really wasn't that bad, but just the feeling that I got from not being able to comprehend because I wasn't used to it.

Yeah.

With English, you know, generally speaking, I would be understanding anyone at that point. And with finnish it was such a big difference. The gap was so big and it was so foreign to me, this, this feeling that well i do experience it sometimes as well? So it's not like it has faded completely, but, , it was very striking back in 2020.

Yeah. I think, yeah, I think I, I kind of understand what you mean 'cause I, when I'm in an environment where I cannot predict what's happening, I get very flustered as well. It's like, it feels like you've kind of just lost control of everything. And then it's like, yeah. So I, I really, really understand what you mean and, , the kind of feeling that it comes with. But, so, but o obviously to have gotten to this point, you at some point started practicing. So what did you do differently for you for practice to start feeling. Different in order for you to get comfortable speaking out with people.

I think that to get comfortable, I had to first get very uncomfortable and understand that I don't want that feeling. So I was motivated by discomfort of that, of these initial interactions, and by discomfort of being left out or somehow feeling inadequate, that has motivated me to try again and again, and try to get over this feeling. Try to get over myself in the this moment and try to prioritize communication over being perfect. So this was a fight between perfectionism and making sense. At some point I've agreed with myself that as long as you make sense and as long as you haven't offended the other person, technically you've done it. And because people don't actually care about you, they don't actually remember. Most of the things that you say it's okay to make these mistakes. then I moved to Helsinki and I started my first job, which is where I got to practice it in the real, real world, where I had an opportunity to use it with loads of different people in different kind of contexts, business wise, and, you know, just regular day-to-day conversations. So it has really broadened that exposure factor, and it has really given me a platform to try and experiment with what I'm saying. I picked up some of this spoken language, which was, again, foreign to me back in Jyväskylä . So it, I kind of transitioned with my life circumstance. I also transitioned in my thinking, in my approach to these interactions

In this first job. , 'cause I remember when I had a, the first job that I had to speak Finnish was at the, like as a cashier in the store. And I, I don't know how I got that job. I don't know how I passed that interview. I just went and nodded and then just kept nodding and then I signed the contract and then I moved on. But, what was the first one that kind of where you were able to, and also was it so that you had to speak Finnish or you forced yourself to speak Finnish?

In my first job, I didn't need to speak Finnish. It was an English speaking place that I worked at. But there were some people who could not speak English that well. And with them I've decided that I might start speaking finnish and gradually as I was still learning it, I still had a teacher and we still had the goal of passing. YKI testi, in a couple of years. From 2020. I understood that I want to try and initiate that conversation. So when I saw Finns coming and speaking finnish, I would speak finnish to them and we would have the whole interaction in finnish. So it was partially my decision, partially contextual. Nobody was really telling me to speak, finnish at my first job. My second job, however, I did need to speak finnish.

Okay.

And that was way more difficult for me because I already progressed to like a mid-management position. And that was challenging because of the, , you know, the pressure that the, the role put on me. I had loads more responsibility basically, and trying to solve complex situations with customers as well. That was just, you know, an added challenge on top of finnish.

I, , I can relate to that. 'cause the thing with the shop cashier thing is like, 'cause it just, it flow of information people, because there, and I've usually, I've prepped . Scripts . For commonly or current scenarios. I've commonly used, , sentences that I have. And if you came and you asked me something that did not fall into one of those things, , like, it's above me now. It, it was, it's like, yep. Good luck with that. that And , yeah, luckily I was. I usually had staff, other staff on hand. 'cause I was not like, , a full-time worker there. I was more of like a hired help. So there was always somebody who was more in that place and I could just call them to take care of the situation. But that was, those were nightmareish, scenarios, not gonna lie. Yeah. But, , yeah. So you, regarding what worked and what didn't, what so practice at the beginning didn't work, but then , what other parts of the process did you feel like, okay, doing this and doing this really worked for me?

What really worked for me, language learning wise was consuming material in the same way that I'm used to when it comes to other languages. So, in English, I was used to watching TV series, watching YouTube, listening to songs, being on social media. What else did I do? So that was pretty much my foundations because my English. Came from mainly watching bloggers on YouTube and I figured that we need to use the same technique in every other language. And I started trying to find Finnish bloggers, trying to follow Finnish vloggers on YouTube, trying to follow them on Instagram, going through intensive courses where we would watch finnish TV series or just like internet series or something, comedy sketches. So I've adapted that part of my life to finnish and it has actually worked. I found it entertaining. I found it useful. I found it easy to consume, and gradually from these things, I transitioned into being braver at workplace and overcoming my fears of kind of not being perfect, and then just kind of being okay with the fact that sometimes I just don't understand and that is still fine. At some point, I think I've decided that there is no way that I can know everything. Speaking of this script. When you know you have somebody coming in and it's not just a question of your seniority, your skills at work, but it's generally speaking in language question. You just don't have anyone to answer for you, and you just don't understand. I've just decided that I'm gonna let it go. It's just gonna be there. If I call someone on the phone or if somebody calls me from a maintenance company, right, and I don't understand what they're talking about, I try to understand the context of it. I try to ask them to rephrase it or to speak slowly or something like that. But even if after that I don't understand, I just let it go. Because the thing is, I've never really been in a situation where that would be a matter of life or death, and most everyday situations have been manageable. Even when I don't fully understand yet, I give an answer. So yes, there, there have been loads of situations where I would just say something because I think I assume correctly, and I just let it go. I just let it be. And to this days, there are situations where I just say, okay, I think this is what they mean, and I'm going to answer with what I think I should answer with. And that has worked.

That is crazy. , I don't know if it's self-confident or just,

I just think it's kind of foolish to be honest. But you just let that be, ? You just, I just let that be because I, if you wanna know everything, you need to go back to school and you need to really, pick up the book, and learn to the maximum. But if you don't want to do that, you don't really have any other option. You could practice, you could keep practicing. But the nature of finnish conversation, the nature of finnish people, is that nobody's going to actually correct you even if you ask people to correct. It is, in my life, it hasn't really happened that people will be correcting every single word that you say. So there is no such thing as kind of perfecting it on the job. That hasn't happened to me yet. Maybe English that has happened to me. Yes. But, , Finnish, I wouldn't say that, that that is something that I've seen. So I just, that part of it, that part of language learning, I just allow it to be what it is, which is sometimes you just gotta pretend that you understood.

Yeah. I, whatever that is, I need more of that in my life because I have this thing where I need to understand stuff before I can move. And that part need needing to understand stuff also involves me sometimes explaining things too much to people because like, no, you don't get it. I need to explain it to you. And then I, so I find myself in an endless loop of either explaining things or not taking action because I want to understand something fully before I take action. And I'm trying to learn out of that. But this is very refreshing to hear that somebody has that on lock and it's like, yeah, I don't need to understand the full thing.

Because the thing is, I believe that. Sometimes it's life. In life, you don't understand some things, but then time passes by and you find yourself in a different context and you get the same information again. And from that level of whatever you have in life, you get it. So sometimes you just have to wait. Maybe right now this is not necessary for you to know, maybe it's destiny, you know, whatever you call it. But, so my thinking is that sometimes it is really okay to miss out on something. . Because then you might, in a couple of years, find yourself somewhere where you do get it. And maybe you shouldn't rush to know everything. Maybe when, when you really need to study, you know, Helsinki history, and you need to understand this really specific meme, you know, because Finnish culture is a lot about jokes and memes. Like any culture, you don't get it now, but that's okay. In a couple of years, you're going to make the same meme yourself because you will get the context. So maybe forcing yourself to be there already, forcing yourself to be a native speaker when you're not a native speaker. Is not going to get you very far,

What resources did you use in your learning journey?

In my learning journey, I've mostly used my textbooks. So that is the suomen mestari book. Some printed materials from harjoitus tekee mestari, so some pages of that. ,

That's textbook or,

yeah, that's it. That is also a finnish textbook. Okay. Like I said, video lectures YouTube, finnish TV series comedy sketches, all short form, middle form content. , asking my friends if I am trying to come up with a message to send to a recruiter later on when I was looking for a job or I'm trying to write an essay or something important and it's not too big of a deal to ask, then I would reach out to my classmates. So the people that I went to university with my, , native finns that I studied with. And then later on, some other finns that I got to be friends with or my colleagues and generally speaking would reach out to anyone who seems like they would be willing to help. And it doesn't always have to be the same person. I was just trying to see where this would go, like asking them, Hey, would you be willing to check my cv? And they would be like, yeah, of course. No problem. So up until like very recently and still I, I do find myself doing this. I reach out to people in my network and I just ask them, Hey, if, could you just check this message for me because this is really important and I don't wanna mess it up. And this always works like always. . I'm really fortunate that I'm surrounded by people who are supporting me, , in my language learning. And finns are genuinely speaking nice people. They, they are super, super friendly. When you tell 'em that you learn Finnish and they appreciate that, and you should use that, not in a malicious way, but you know, this is a good soil for you to plant your finnish seeds into.

Wow. So poetic. This,

this is such a, Finland is a wonderful country for Finnish language learners because Finns love it when you speak Finnish,

right? Yeah. So YouTube, vlogs, sketches, music friend help, you know, strangers help. I suppose. And what finnish artist were you like, , most? Listening to

my first, the first Finnish artist that I could actually comprehend. Yeah. Music artist was Behm. So Behm is, , the, , the woman who wrote Hei rakas song, which was viral around COVID Times, I think. . Somewhere around there. , That was the first song that I ever understood the lyrics of, and I was blown away because that feeling has never, again, that was the first time I felt this is like a good example of my language journey going from crying at the library to this, which is probably like a year from the crying incident.

Oh wow.

This was, , this was the first time I was listening to this song, I think on YouTube or on radio, and then I was like, I get what she's singing about. I get what she means. And I was blown away because I was like, wait, what is this? This is something new. I've never felt that. So that was brilliant, obviously. And then I went on to Google it and tried to make sense of what she was using so I could understand it to a Tee. So that was the first song that I actually. Comprehended. And then after that I started listening to Finnish Rap. So Gettomasa, and he has become my favorite rapper for a while. I don't listen to Finnish rap that much anymore. I do still listen to, , hip hop a lot, and I've, , I think I've seen Gettomasa twice. , and yeah, so there, there has been several Finnish artists that I would become a fan of, sorta because I couldn't understand it to, to the full extent. But with Behm, definitely she was the first with her song. She was the first that I, I actually understood that this I get it. I get it. Yeah.

Such a place in your heart.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, it's been overplayed, but she's a really talented artist and, , appreciate, I, I fully, , you know, I'm, I'm very appreciative of the fact that she wrote that song in the first place so that I could have that experience, that breakthrough kind.

The, speaking of gaining resources, if you had to just off the top of your head, just state, just rapid fire, just state one that you feel like is really useful and then one that you feel like is overrated or useless.

It's hard to pick. I think the most useful for me has been reaching out to my finnish friends, even though YouTube lectures are cool and short form content is great. Reaching out to my classmates and them giving me the context as to why you would use a certain kind of what ending or kind of a word form that has been contextually speaking that has been the, the most enriching and then the least useful is probably going to be something like Duolingo. I do not wanna mention any names. Right. I don't wanna mention any, but yeah, so I, I was one of the first people who had started finnish on Duolingo. 'Cause it came out and I immediately hit it. And I was probably the first for a couple of days because I was really trying to prove that I know this language, you know, to whatever extent that I knew it back then. But then it, it wasn't that useful. It was fun for me because obviously I understood it well enough and I could actually fulfill all the tasks that Duolingo, you know, asks you to do whatever the word match things. But it's long term speaking. I wouldn't say that these kinds of apps, , are that, yeah. Sorry about that. But, ,

no, I completely agree. I, it's, I have a whole unreleased episode on this, on what I found absolutely useless. Duolingo was one of them. It's people have these 300 day streaks and then they can't. Say anything, you can string together a meaningful sentence and stuff like that. Like Oh yeah. At least on, on, on reflex. It's, it's, so, it one of those things that I feel like is quite overrated. So what observations have you made about other people learning?

The many observation that I made about other people learning finnish, that would be my friend's learning finnish, is that people are much braver than me, genuinely speaking, and that is where they won. Lots of people started using finnish much more fluently than I did because they were braver when it comes to practicing in real world. So where I got the problem of, , crying at the library and then I could move on from that for a couple months that already started making these mistakes. But trying just more often making Finnish friends at the bar, just being kind of more social. And that's what got the Headspace in because headway, because language is a tool of communication. That is why we have it. It's language as, is, is useless. It's part of culture, it's part of society, it's part of communication. And I think that main reason why you should learn a language is because you want to communicate. Now that cannot be simulated by an app because real world, thankfully, yet is not an app. It's not ai, it's real human connection, real human conversations. And if you want to succeed in learning a language, one of your goals should be communication. And because they'd started more, frequently trying to converse and trying to overcome the same fears, because I'm sure we all had the same feelings at some point. The faster they got to learn, the faster they got to accelerate in that, because actual live communication makes you a fluent speaker. Even though you may not learn, finnish to C one, C two, which is my case, I stopped learning finnish after I got that B one certificate because I practice, I sound more fluent than my actual level on paper.

Yeah. So this is relevant because when we're having the conversation, when I was trying to recruit her to do the interview, she, , you are like. Saying, your finnish level is so good. I was like, wait, hold on, let's switch the entire conversation into finnish. And then we had the conversation in finnish. I'm like, what do you mean by your finnish is not on C level? But then again, I don't have, I'm not an official tester of C level, but just by my ear, I would say I'm pretty sure that is C level sounds like C level speaking to me. And it is, it is what it is. And I think you said you got tested and after you got the B one test

Yeah.

A year ago.

So in, , in terms of the actual language test and my language band for YKI, I got a B one. So it's all threes for three for every section. . And that would be a, a B one. And then since then, that was in 2023. So I got my certificate in July, 2023. I passed it in May, 2023. Since then, I haven't had a single finnish class.

Right. But then I, my, my theory on that one is that. 'cause you were speaking at a much better level, in my opinion, than just B one. So I think it's one of those things where when you reach like terminal velocity, it's like now you have the skill enough that just by virtue of you using it in your day-to-day life, it's self propagating, self-improving without you actually making any extra effort for it. So I'm sure you can watch movies and watch podcasts, , you listen to podcasts and in your day to day, I'm sure you'd use it here and there and stuff like that. And just by virtue of that, it's improving by itself without you making any conscious effort. And this is the, the, the, the kind of cheat code with this. If you force yourself to learn to a certain point, you get to a stage where it's like a wheel on the top of a hill and then just starts rolling by itself. Yeah. Yeah. Are there some surprising or unconventional things that you did that most people might not think of?

Let me think. So surprising or unconventional things that I did to help me learn, finnish well. Okay. So I've never heard anyone do this, at least not my friends because I started listening to a lot of hip hop Gettomasa per se. I started translating his songs and that is spoken finnish, like a hip hop, grade spoken finnish. I've never heard anyone try to translate that without the context of being a Native Finn, or, well, most of his songs have not been translated, at least by, by the time that I was trying to find the translations, I, I had not come across any. Or maybe a couple, but that wasn't like his whole discography was translated. So what I started doing is I'd started trying to translate word by word and try to, to make sense out of all the, , spoken, the shortened, the, , jargons, whatever he had there in, in the text. And I wouldn't say that that was really fruitful because you need to have the context for that kind of poetry. But it is something that I still sometimes do when I want to understand what the song is about.

And you feel like, well, you said you, you're not too sure if how fruitful that was. So are you saying like you don't believe that it helped you in your learning much or

translating hip hop word by word did help my learning, but I wouldn't say that my translations were accurate or that I landed on the best way to do that. So in, in terms of discovery or having fun as an activity, as if, as a language learner activity, this was definitely great, but it wasn't the most efficient way to understand what is written. So I, I might have, I might have done it better if I were to just ask a friend of mine to translate it for me or try to give me context, which is later on I would go on Reddit or on some, , forums to find people's reviews of the track or go on Genius and try to see what people are commenting on. And then

you could find finnish lyrics on Genius.

Yeah.

Wow. Okay. ' ,

If you want to, you can find anything pretty much, except for some translations because of this is like a very niche kind of thing. . So, yes. It wasn't just Gettomasa it was JVG it was Costi. It was, , ibe. IBE has a great song about Helsinki.

What's it called? If you remember,

it's called "Stadi on Kylmä".

I'll check this out.

, I really like that song. . And having moved to Helsinki and discovering that song as I was, as I moved to Helsinki, that made sense of a lot of things for me. And still, I do listen to that song and it, it becomes richer to me. I wouldn't really call it a masterpiece per se, but the topics that he covers in the song, I think are quite real.

So you're saying real, he's the Martin Luther King of our time.

No, absolutely not

no. Oh, okay.

I'm a classical singer I don't wanna be a snob, but I do compare songs sometimes. And you, there are far greater lyrics out there, but if we don't compare genres, some, there are some artists that I personally vibe with, so we put these people in a. In that category. So this is pop, this is hip hop. So I, I enjoy them to a certain extent, but I'm not trying to say that this is the best thing that I've ever heard anybody write or rap,

so it's just only slightly less good than like Mozart, just slightly.

Yeah. I wouldn't compare any, anyone, any rapper to a Mozart or to Beethoven or to Brahms or to anyone of the classics, because these are two very different things.

Right. Okay. So translating song lyric, rap lyrics, hip hop lyrics was like a thing that you did that Okay. What are passive things that you did, things that you've already set up or happen to be in a certain way that helped you. So for example, in my case if I'm working in a place that like I'm required to speak Finnish, that is not my own doing. I'm not actively forcing myself to speak Finnish. It just happens to me that I'm here and I have to be here. It's, I don't have to take any action for it to happen. Or if I set my phone into finnish, that's an, that's a thing that it's been done once and it's, it's self forces me to kind of practice or the fact that I was dating somebody who spoke Finnish things. Those are things that are out of my day to day control that they just kind of help me. So, and they're like passive things that help me to improve. What are passive things in your life that helped you? Get better.

Some passive things that I've done to help me along the journey would be, first of course, setting my phone to finnish and then keeping it on finnish throughout my travel. So if I'm on a holiday in Croatia, my phone stays in, finnish so that I don't lose that context. I don't lose that identity of a language learner. And , I keep defaulting to that language as a, like a basic kind of way to, to process things. Second would be speaking, finnish to myself. I tend to speak quite a lot in my, you know, day-to-day to myself, which I dunno if that's healthy, but that is just my life. So, , instead of speaking English, which is my default language, I try to switch to finnish. And, , has also helped to reframe some of the thinking because obviously language is also logic. And if you try to say the, say, say the same thing into different languages, you would be using different forms, different kind of expressions. And I found it useful to, if I just gone shopping, I come back from, my shopping and I, I try to allocate the goods onto shelves and into the fridge. I speak about what I'm doing, just kind of talking to myself on, of something that I've seen at the shop. Somebody did something or said something or something has definitely happened because it's, there's been a social interaction, so I need to comment on it. Especially if I made a mistake in saying something stupid or maybe I didn't understand something, I would kind of give myself a little pep talk or like a little podcast rant about it whilst unloading the dishwasher or doing some domestic things. Domestic chores. And that would kind of help me to. Reconcile with the reality of what has just happened. And that continues to happen because I do run into situations where I feel inadequate, where I would, you know, feel uncomfortable. And these are not as bad as they used to be when I just would not make sense of anything that was said. These days it's a little bit better, but still this kind of technique of, , giving myself a little pep talk, ranting about what has just happened in finnish because the interaction was in finnish helps. I think it's a useful thing. So it's, it is the same as, you know, I used to watch blogs in English. I started watching them in finnish. I used to run and I still do in English. I'm switching to finnish. So it's the same thing, the same function, the same kind of routine, the same task. But I'm just transposing that from English to finnish. And I, I use the same kind of, I. Thought pattern, but I just reframe it a little bit.

So your self-talk, you switched your self-talk into finnish. That is a, like, that's a massive cheat code. Actually I think that's one of the things that I did, but I completely forgot that I did until you brought it up now. But, , I saw it in a TED talk, I think where the guy, he was a polyglot and he was talking about how he switched his personal self-talk to use a different language. At least so far as it was within his capacity to control, they switched to in the language that he was trying to learn. And that helped a lot. And the thing is, I think one thing I've noticed about these kind of things is, , or learning anything really to this degree is anything that forces your brain to do active work helps you along. So if you write, that's massive. If you speak. That's massive. 'cause you have to process what you're saying and then say it, and then again, self-talk. And that I would imagine for people who think before they talk, most of the think, most of the thinking happens in most of that speaking is actually self-talk in your head before. So the large volume of words and sentences in your life is probably in your own head. So if you can get yourself to have self-talk in your target language, that's like your, that's a huge, yeah, that's a very good point that you brought up actually. Yeah. And, , what are the active things that you did? So things like where you have to actually get up and go, make something happen, like, study your routine, I don't know, say speaking habit lecture, et cetera, those kind of things.

One of the active things I did very recently, I, I went back to school and that would be trying to get further education and music and classical singing. Plus theory, of course, piano, et cetera, et cetera, you know, the whole curriculum. And in my case, that would mean going into an actual, musiikkiopisto , an educational institution which has finnish teaching. So all of the people who study there are Finns or Speak fluent finnish teachers are obviously Finns, most of them Native Finns. And it's a education institution that runs in Finnish. And I've got, I study at two different musiikkiopisto. So both of them run in Finnish. And at both of these institutions, I, I speak Finnish, whether that is with the staff or my teachers or other students. The whole thing runs in finnish. So I'm forced to speak, finnish regardless of whether I enjoy it, whether I feel like it, whether I think im good at it on a specific day or whatever. I just have to, because. It's weird to try and break that when you have all of that set to finnish, when the default of communication is finnish. It's weird to try and break that into English and you feel like you are downgrading yourself because you can speak Finnish, you can write and finnish. You can handle it. You can actually do way more than you think, and which is why you're having these feelings, negative feelings when you're trying to revert back into your old ways, the easy ways of doing it in English, because that is true. It is true. When you speak more than one language, when you know it to a certain level, you can handle these things. Even if you think that you don't understand. Most of the time, you get the general scope of it. If you really struggle, then yeah, of course copy paste to, yeah, whatever, Google translator whatever you need. But the point is that I can handle it even if I'm uncomfortable. There is always a growth potential there, and this is what makes it great. I understand that as long as I keep trying to grow, I'm doing progress. This is progress. Because progress could never be speaking English. There is no process in, there is no progress in in speaking finnish when you're speaking English, it's just not gonna go anywhere. It's gonna stay there, it's gonna stagnate, it's gonna rot, and then you will have really stupid mistakes. Which is where you, you lose your level of, , language of

every time I go abroad or something like that, where I don't have to speak Finnish for a while and I come back, it's like, yeah, I, it's, I could feel, I already feel the rot, the stagnation and yeah. What conscious, this is one also one thing that I've come to, 'cause I think a, most of us, the biggest goals we achieve are like academic. So you went to school, you graduated, you, , yeah, most of the people, that's the, the thing, and I've come to realize that for, if you want to achieve goals outside of, going to school, which is already kind of set up for us, usually you have to have things set up in a way that it's easier to make effort towards the goal than to not make effort towards the goal. So what conscious changes did you make in your life that made it easier to practice than to not practice?

The conscious changes that I made in my life in order to practice easier or in order to be more disciplined, is I would set up routines as I do with anything else. If I don't have a routine, it's really hard to do anything. For instance, I do my washing on the same day, or I do my homework on certain days as I do my classes. I've set up my classes to be every day of the week these days, because I want to get out there every day. I force myself to speak, finnish, to be out there with the people and you know, be social in that sense to practice. Same goes with homework. So if I understand that I have a free time for it, a slot for it, then I put it there and I try to stick to it. Of course it's impossible to always stick to it. But having that schedule, having that routine, and having a concrete goal. So let's say I wanted to go study at a Finnish university fully in finnish, I try to map out what I need to do to achieve that. What level is required, what vocabulary, what technical things, who can help with that? What books, what resources I need. And then from that I try to map how many lessons I need to have, how much I need to practice. Same with music. So essentially any kind of learning, I think, realize in these foundations is that you need to set up a routine, which is just essentially a big task, a big goal, broken into smaller bits. So today I learn about this kind of. Chord progression. Tomorrow I learn about this kind of thing. And then every day you get to add another bead onto this necklace that becomes your, education or academic potential success. And then sometimes you, you forget about the necklace at the drop it, and the beads go scattered on the floor, but then you come pick it up again. So this is like a Sisyphus story when you, you know, but this is, this is really also about that. I think success is, you know, when you fail and you come back up and you try again and again and again, and with language learning, , this, the initiative comes from you, ? Because nobody is going to sit with you. Nobody is going to hold you by the neck and say, Hey, you have to become fluent

, I've, realized also that, , integration is like a huge factor. And there's, and the story that I tell about a friend of mine who's actually right here, who, when he lived in Australia, he was in charge of an, like renting an apartment and 'cause he's finnish. But then the German exchange students, when they would come, they would go, there was another place that was, had a German host. So they would choose there more often. And then you could tell the difference between those who chose the German host and his place. 'cause with him they would have to speak English. But with the German host, they can just speak German with. Yeah. And then after the exchange is over, you could tell the difference in like language levels, , the improvement because. They, , the people with him had to practice and the people with over there did not 'cause they could just speak German with that guy. Anyway, long story short, integration is important. How did you integrate yourself into like Finnish Society

the way I try to integrate myself into the Finnish society would be through, or the existing networks. So classmates of my classmates, friends, of my friends, my colleagues have played a large role in that. So I've, I've become friends with loads of people through work and We've stayed friends because of that. And, , on top of these I would also go dating, of course, which I think you've mentioned before. So trying to date people in finnish and, , going on events, different kind of conferences, festivals, volunteering. I've volunteered a little bit, I'm not gonna say much, but a little bit here. And then, , that has brought me a lot of connections and being active on social media. Just kind of conversing with people when you see somebody post something on Instagram and they're native finn where you can just answer in finnish. You know, if, if you are having a conversation that is already there, you just kind of switch at some point or you just start it in finnish and you just continue in, finnish. So these are all like very natural ways for you to keep going. Same goes to anything else. If it's your landlord or if it's the maintenance company or if it's somebody like a hir at, you know, happens every day. Just yesterday with me, they see my face, they speak English to me, which is fine, but they are a Finn, a native Finn, and I can see that. So I answer back in finnish. And it's a completely natural way to reclaim that. To reclaim that conversation in finnish.

Right, okay. Yeah. 'cause a lot of people from, especially from countries where they have significant number of people in Finland, you very easily just do this where they just only spend time with people from their country, or then others also do this where they only watch TV from their country through the some internet system thing where they just watch TV from their country or radio from their country. And that's all. And then it's like, well, how do you expect to improve at finnish if you're not doing anything that would take you towards it? Yeah.

Well, I think if I may, just to kind of put my 5 cents into this I think it's okay to continue watching TV in your native language, but. If you have a goal of learning, if you're curious, you need to find natural ways for you to transpose that or intertwine that with other routines, which would make it easier for you to, integrate this language learning aspect into your day to day. So without forcing yourself into listening to a podcast, you need to try something that would hook you onto that, you know, whether that is TV watching or whatnot. So you can keep watching. You know, if you, if you are originally from Russia, you can keep watching Russian TV if you like that, which you, everybody is different. But then if you're interested in Finnish Music, listen to finnish music. You don't have to watch Finnish TV if you don't want to watch Finnish tv. But then just try to do something which would be natural to you, right? But in finnish,

do you have any groups in your life that you could make force to speak, finnish with you?

I do have groups in my life where I'm forced to speak Finnish. That is mostly my classmates at my, one of my musiikkiopisto So it's, it's my, , music theater class, which is where we have four students, including me, and, well, these people don't, generally speaking, don't even think about speaking English to me because it's not natural, because they used to already be a group before I joined it with these people, and I just kind of came through and became one of them. So I don't have any leverage in trying to say, Hey, why don't we just switch to English, because that is not my goal to start with, but also because there's been an entity that has been finnish speaking and it's a environment where nobody's expecting English or nobody's trying to learn it. So it's a completely authentic Finnish classroom where I just, I just am and try to keep up.

But I'm, I'm talking about like, 'cause you're talking about now, right? So what I mean is like. 'cause now you've already kind of achieved the goal, but, and you said it's been nine years since you came. So let's say you started in year three, so let's say in year four versus year seven. So in those times, were there people that you had, were there people that you could force to speak, finnish, with you in like 2020 and then in 2023, for example, in your learning? During the learning journey part?

I've always found different kinds of people to ask to speak Finnish to me along the journey. Whether that is my classmates or teachers or people at the shops or just really anyone like my neighbors. So I've relied on mostly these kinds of interactions along the way and. Especially during times after COVID, when people came back out in the world. I think that was something that I was trying to establish. I would go to language groups like I think it was, what's the name of that? So it was like a peer to peer teaching. You teach them

cafe lingua

Yeah, something like that. Like a language cafe. Yeah, that's right. So I would just join these kinds of groups and we would talk about some things, three of us or however many, and that is, that is how I kind of sustained my social life because it was difficult for me to, to find any friends after university, of course, since everybody has moved out or that is just life. And then of course after that, as I moved to Helsinki and I found a job, I found a permanent crowd to speak, finnish with. That would be customers, that would be friends, bosses, and with jobs and schools progressing, I would find new friends. Just kind of grow that.

. So language cafes, jobs, and just people you just meet, you are able to kind of , maintain that the, the language of the relationship is in finnish during the first, during the initial years of you trying to learn. Okay. From your experience, when people don't succeed at learning finnish, what has usually been the reason?

I think a typical reason of not being successful in Finn is first all reverting back to English. If you are to speak English doesn't have to be fluent, but still few. If you find English to be your main language abroad, then you will most likely try to speak as much English as you could, which I'm guilty of that. For the first couple of years when I had no incentive of trying to stay on the finnish track, I would speak English. Now, I don't do that anymore. Now that I've gotten more confident with my finnish, despite all the mistakes and problems that I have, but I think lots of people just stay there in the comfort of English, and it's completely normal. But it is something that is going to it's going to hack away at your progress. It's going to make you eventually just lose that motivation. If you set yourself up as somebody who can't speak English right now, like, no, I'm not speaking English, then you keep on the finnish track. But if you just lose that kind of incentive, then nobody can force you. Nobody can force you. This is a very, this is a lonely thing to do, even though language is a tool of communication, each learning journey is unique to the speaker. So if you yourself are not pushing yourself, if you're not being diligent, with your education, nobody can force you to speak. Maybe in some cases your spouse, your friends, you know, it depends on your crowd, but essentially it's your, if you decided you wanna learn it, it's up to you. It's your initiative, it's your responsibility. . So keeping on that track and trying not to resort to whatever language you have as your main one is definitely a risk of success, I think. Yeah. That is how it works.

I completely agree. I, that's what I did in 2022, so I was just like New Year's resolution and I just went and I told everyone I didn't wanna have that conversation one-on-one with everyone individually. So I just LinkedIn Instagram, all my social media. Just post it. If you speak, finnish, which we only speaking finnish, you can just, as far as you are concerned, I don't speak any English. And yeah, so I just forced it with everybody. And if I'm gonna tell you a story that's supposed to take 15, 30 seconds, it was gonna take two minutes and hey, too bad. You're just gonna have to listen. Or move on. It's like, and I like, it's one of, yeah, like you said, it's your own initiatives. You have to force it. And , it was kind of like, I also had this kind of thought process that if you are my friend, my me, succeeding should be in your best interests. So should be in a way your responsibility as well. And if you're not my friend, well I don't care. So my success is my responsibility and yeah, you either communicate with me or you don't. And, , yeah. So either way you just have to kind of delude yourself into getting towards your goal and stuff. Yeah. But, okay, so people reverting back to, to English has been, yeah, I think for English speakers it's a, it's a huge issue. 'cause Finns will speak English with you. A lot of our sys the systems here, you can find this stuff in English for and is there anything else that comes to mind about why people may not succeed in learning finnish?

I think another reason why somebody may struggle with the learning finishes, putting yourself down, honestly being too self-critical. But this isn't just the language learning thing. It's when you are acting from a position of absence of power in a situation where you are a foreigner in finland and you think that your experience is less valuable, comparing to the native in and where you try to be something that you're not, because these things, these insecurities, they ultimately eat away at your motivation. So if you're trying to be perfect, that will eat away at the freedom that you have when you're being imperfect. This is why I allow myself to sometimes just carry through the conversation, even though I've not understood something or something big, because I think that this is going to give me that space to just be, to just exist, to just talk, to, just manifest myself in that interaction in instead of trying to think of the books or trying to be perfect, trying not to, God forbid or appear as rude or something like that. Because that is, again, all of these things, they are important, but they are eating away at the actual life communication.

Yeah. From your perspective as well. So then as a counter side to this earlier question, what did you do that others don't?

What did I do that others didn't? Wow. With my experience, I've had a difficult, I've had a difficult time learning finnish and I can't really speak of everyone, but I think that what's unique to my experience is that I've gotten back up repeatedly despite failing, despite losing motivation. I got back up at first when I just forgot, finnish, when I thought that this is not a priority in my life. I just put on a back burner. I came back up to it in 2019 and through struggling through my negative experiences with one of my first interactions, I was able to rework that and keep on doing it. Showing up at the Es, knowing that I can't have it all, knowing that I will have to make these mistakes and I might potentially get the very low marks. I allowed myself to get these threes, but. I got them to get this certificate because I knew that this is the sacrifice that I'm going to make and that the paper does not define me. Yes, I may get low marks, which is characteristical of me. I often do that with English. 6.5 was low for me. It was supposed to be at seven, but you know, you can't really say that anymore. The thing is, I just allowed myself to get back up again and again because I knew that there is a greater goal to this. If I'd set up on a journey of getting my finnish citizenship, I knew that I will have to make sacrifices and these awkward situations, these tears, these misunderstandings, these humiliating moments, they're just part of that journey. And if I wanted to be perfect, if I want to have no friction, if I want to have no problems, if I want to have no doubts, I just shouldn't do it. I should just stick with something that is seemingly less abrasive to my comfort and learning finnish has been a constant discomfort. Every day I'm in a situation where I don't know how the interaction is gonna go, and it's always a question of, am I gonna get what I want to get and how am I gonna get how soon? But it's always rewarding when it's an unconventional way. So let's say I just wanted to get like a straightforward answer and then I ended up making a friend because it was an awkward chat instead. So that there is value in these things that come, that arise from situations which you can't predict. So getting back up, being like, this has been traumatizing, but I'm gonna do it again and I will succeed eventually. This is what work me through. And a certain, I think a certain degree of delusion. . I

tell me about. Yeah,

I enjoy that sense. I enjoy that feeling of being delusional. I use it in not just finnish learning, but just English speaking, any kind of learning music, learning career wise. Just at some point be a little bit delusional, which some people may argue that delusion is not the right word to use. Just be kind of optimistic and try to be the best version of what you could, you know, try to make the most effort, et cetera. But I just call it kind of delusion. Just be delusional. Yeah. Because if you're not envisioning the best outcome, if I hadn't envisioned holding that finnish passport in my hands somewhere in 2019, if I hadn't spent all these years when I was crying in my low moments, thinking about that moment when I do become a finnish citizen, I would have nothing to hope for. Nothing is enough when you don't have that big goal. In my case I've always been the kind of person who needs to have that grandiose goal. You know? I need to have that big, big dream. And it has worked for me. . It continues to work for me, actually.

I relate. Yeah. I've just been positively diluted.

Yeah.

That's how I, I put it to myself. Yeah. It's, , something that I very much relate with. It's, , yeah. 'cause it it's, I heard something like, , you think highly of yourself. I'm like, well, who's gonna do that for me if I don't? . Yeah. But I, yeah, I love that. So the things that you feel like helped you a lot that others don't is, is that positive delusion, being able to pick yourself up and go again, and then the comfort with discomfort, kind of just forcing yourself into discomfort. Okay. Yeah. Let's do it like a rapid fire part on. If there are like six parts to learning a language, let's just go to through them and then you can tell me how you sorted out each part. So you just can just list off the things you did to improve those things. So let's start with speaking. What are the things that you did to improve the speaking?

To improve speaking. I just allowed myself to be wrong, be rude, be weird, be loud, whatever it is, and just keep speaking no matter what.

And I'm guessing you spoke to people.

Yeah. And I continue doing so as I said.

Despite the initial,

yeah.

What are the things that you did that helped you with listening comprehension?

The listening comprehension. I, I'd say that mostly. So video, video content and listening to songs and just just existing in a media field where English, , Finnish is spoken as the main language. So it's consuming media and understanding that people may have different accents, different pronunciations, and gain gaining that skill of understanding no matter what. Trying to make it up to par with English. Because with English I understand almost any kinda accent. So trying to use the same neurons in my brain to match these things.

speaking of this this listening, I just wrote an article for the, I'm working on a website for this project, and I just wrote an article about listening and I was, I wrote that you should listen to, like podcasts for example, regardless of or not of whether you fully understand what they're seeing or how do you feel about that thing. You might not have reached a level where you understand the full thing, but like a lot of people, because they haven't reached a level they don't listen to like these kind of things. What do you think about that?

I think you should, no matter how much you don't understand, if you, if it's entertaining to you, if you find it educational, then you shouldn't rob yourself of that experience. I think that no matter which language you're learning, there is always shows, there's always content, there is always ways to interact with language trying to comprehend and you can just pick whatever feels right for you and then if you don't understand some kind of meme or some contextual thing, just be okay with it. Because as I said earlier, right, today you don't understand it. In a couple of years you're going to be making these memes yourself and it's just a question of time.

Perfect. , how did you work on grammar?

Grammar is a tough subject.

It is very

honestly grammar. Just, , being consistent when I was still studying with it. So try to be as accurate as possible with what I'm saying. Trying to think before I say if it's an educational context, but in everyday life, if you see that you're really struggling on the day, if you can't remember how to say something or you are really outta place and you feel like stressed, replace difficult things with easier forms. You, you, you can shorten things. You can say them in puhekieli, you can use an English term because especially uusimaa region people use puhekieli and they use industry specified jargon all the time. In my industry and music industry, people always use half, half English words as a say because it's like a finnish. An English verb that has a, a finnish verb ending. I wouldn't really say that is jargon. It's just people make up these things

Right.

From the context of language that they speak.

But, , in terms of like, did you use, like, you mentioned textbooks as a way of, I'm sure that also was something that you used to work on improving the grammar and stuff. Were there any, like websites as well that you would refer to, you would go check for how things are said or how conjugations and stuff like that?

For grammar conjugation, I wouldn't really say that I had a website or a specific source. I would consult my teacher and I would consult my Finnish friends. Okay. Because conjugation is also a contextual thing in, in finnish, sometimes you may omit certain kind of rules when it comes to conjugations, when you want to say something, you know, when you speak fast or just when it, it's not that important because surprise, surprise, you know, conjugation isn't always there. The main thing.

so about listening comprehension. How did you practice? What are the things that you did that got your listening comprehension to improve

in order to improve the listening comprehension aspect? I think I resorted to first watching different kinds of media, so that is both the news vloggers short form content like tiktoks have helped me a lot in trying to broaden my range better, my comprehension, and speaking to friends and speaking to older people because everyone has a different accent and just kind of trying to make sense of it. If I had something new, I just would write it down and then I would then go to someone else to try and figure it out. So without letting things just be on a lose like that, even though sometimes, like I said, I just allow myself not to understand.

Right. I recently wrote a blog post thing and I, in there I tell people like they shouldn't wait till they understand everything before they start listening to stuff. , personally, yeah, I just started listening to things that I in that interest me in finnish and even before I fully understood it. What do you think about this?

Yeah, definitely. You shouldn't rob yourself of that experience. It's normal not to understand everything in any kinda language. 'cause this's, the thing is, if, if you watch like an ancient documentary or something specific in your native language and you don't understand something, it's, you're not, you're not gonna switch it off. You're just gonna wait until you get more information. And I'd say you should do the same in any language. Sometimes I watch the news and I don't understand what's being said, but I just keep watching. Then somebody else talks about it at work, and we can process that information together. So try and find ways to incorporate these things to try to find ways to figure out what happened.

Fair point. And then about grammar. How did you go about grammar?

Yeah, I think about grammar. I, I'm not the best person when it comes to grammar. I don't have the cleanest finnish. So partially I just let it be what it is. And partially, if I need to sound proper, I try and consult my books, my you know, the things that I used to write down my, my notes, try to speak to teachers and try to speak to my finnish friends. Just let them review whatever it is that I have to say. If it's like a speech or a, an essay or a cb in day-to-day life, I just replace things that I forget how to say properly. And I use a lot of puhe kieli. I don't really speak, I have never really spoken at all, like really since the beginning. And I think that puhekieli allows you to just slack off . Which is also okay, because that is, it's a natural part of the language, so why do you, it's okay.

Yeah. And then what about reading comprehension?

Reading comprehension wise, it's, again, same as, , listing comprehension, different kinds of media. So if it's news, you can try to open up a, , source, like a, like a magazine that has news dubbed in English. We can try to read the same article in Finnish and in English, there is books which are written both in Finnish and in English. I have one of them at home. So you can just kind of cover one part of the text, read it, try to understand, open it, and then the words that you don't know, you just kind of copy to your vocabulary. So just go like bit by bit.

So it's both in English and finnish.

Yeah. Yeah. There's loads of, there is resources for that. There is books which are written in, in both English and , Finnish.

Interesting. I only, the only one I know of is I got gifted and Bible that was English and finnish same time.

And if a Bible works for you Yeah, should definitely, there's loads of different words in life in, in a, , Bible.

Yeah.

Which would be useful for every day.

I just didn't know that they have more of these kind of books like that.

Yeah, there's definitely articles. I'm sure you can Google it and try to find something that interests you. But definitely some newspapers and some magazines for foreigners. There's definitely a Russian magazine that talks about Finnish culture in both Russian and Finnish. And it's a resource where you can learn that finnish vocabulary in, in the safety of having that Russian equivalent one next to each other. So these things are great and I, I would recommend using them.

And how did you. But again, on the reading compression at the early stages when you didn't understand much, what were you reading to kind of improve your reading?

At first, when I really had like a, a small, small vocabulary when I would not read much text, it was just everyday things. One of the first things that I understood is the cooking instructions of one of my, like micro meals or something like frozen. I think I bought some frozen, a frozen meal, and I, at some point I understood what was written and that was one of the first breakthroughs. Just like Behms song, right? . It's, , when you first understand what the song is about, it's the same as anything else. You, you read a small piece of text and you understand, okay, we are talking about simmering, not about boiling. This is already a breakthrough, so maybe you know, it, it would be beneficial to try and include this kind of small easy text at first so that you don't have to climb a mountain

Yeah. Lovely. And, , what about with writing?

With writing, you just have to keep writing. You have to find what is interesting to you. If you are a music learner, if you practice some sport, if you wanna become a writer, you should just write what feels best to you. So if there is a topic, which of course you have to cover a certain range of topics as, as a student, a compulsory kind of topic base. But then you need to depart from that onto something that is actually interesting to you. So if you do kickboxing, which both mean you would, did you need to write about that. If you do research on greenhouse gas, you should write about that. And then no matter how difficult the topic is, if you are actually really into the material, you will find a way to incorporate these long words into your simple text. So just kind of doing bit by bit and doing what you actually like is gonna get you there gradually.

Right. And then what would you again say about early stage writing? Any brief quick words on early stage writing at the time when you, when you have a smaller vocabulary.

So I think for early stage writing, it shouldn't really try and catch it all. It's quite impossible. You should kind of just use what you have. And then if you really feel like I need this to sound pretty, go and google one word, you can go to Sanakirja, you can go to any kind of sanasto, just find that one word that would really make it pop for you and just use that. If your teacher allows you, which is what I did, I would just write my own texts and then if I needed to use some kind of pretty word, I would just go and Google it individually and try to incorporate it with what I have.

Okay. Okay. And then number six of the six is vocabulary. Things did you do to increase or expand the vocabulary

for the vocabulary part, I think mostly was again, watching people speak, seeing what they replace familiar things with. So if you hear somebody say, or it's the same as in English, if you hear somebody use a word that is an alternative to your typical one, use that instead. So try to incorporate that in your speech. Just don't go for this simplest option. Don't go for the the most apparent word, use something else, and then try to build up that confidence in just sounding a bit more fluent. Because fluence is a lot about what you can replace words with, and this is how you can actually spot a native speaker, is when they really struggle to find the word like I sometimes do too. That's one of the, that's one of the, actually the, , makeups of fluency is when you can easily just swap words without hesitation.

Right. Lovely. , so tell me of the times when you found it most difficult to continue chasing that goal. I think you, the beginning, you already thought about that in incident in the library. And, , do you have any other incidents where you found it most very difficult to continue chasing the goal?

I certainly did have situations where I was doubting if I should continue with my finnish, especially when I had questions in the work environment, which I just couldn't solve which would be when I thought that I understood something, but I didn't. And that would really, really, that would really make me feel bad because I would always try to strive for the positive and be that delusional finnish speaker. But sometimes it just doesn't work and you really don't understand. You really miss out on something. That would really put me down. And there are moments like this, like ever so often there are things that really get you and , you just get upset and you get frustrated. But it's just part of the process. You can't be fluent without making these mistakes. And the thing is, language is a living thing. Yeah. It's not stagnant like that. If you knew something today, you may forget it tomorrow, you may be stressed, you may be whatever. And thinking that it's always gonna be the same, there are bad and good days. And especially if you have more than one language to juggle, which I do three Don't be so harsh on yourself. There is no need. It's impressive to know several languages and you should be positive about your learning journey always. And also maybe not trying to compare all the languages that you speak. That would be useful.

Right. And. , what words of encouragement can you give to anyone who has gotten fed up, stuck, whatever in this process of trying to learn, finnish?

Well, I think that if you're stuck, first thing is you need to put it down. If you're really trying to , breakthrough a plateau, you sit at your desk for three hours, nothing happens. Really. You can't write that essay or something like you. You've just come through an interaction that left you empty or traumatized. You

just quit, guys.

No, just put it down for a minute because sometimes, and this has happened to me, after a summer break, I would come back to the classroom and my finnish would improve because I haven't spoken for a couple months. I had that break for the material to settle and for my brain to do some other things. Some new things, potentially some hobbies or whatever I got to do during the summer. And I would refresh that space where I store that language, so it would come back and the soil would be restored. So sometimes you just, you just get stuck because you've been doing so much and you get tired and that's fine. That is okay. So putting it down for a minute is absolutely fine, but then when you feel like you've recharged, you have to pick it up and without the pressure, without trying to restore all that empty space, all the space that you lost, the time that you lost, you just have to start doing it as if you are starting from the beginning. So without putting yourself down and without accumulating that extra weight.

I this phenomenon of just. Stopping something and then when you come back, you have magically just improved. Is I, I feel like it should have a name. If nobody has discovered this, it should have a name. It does. And if no one has, if no one has put this into text I'm claiming it because I realized I was like football, and I stopped playing football for like, quite a while. Then I went back to play and I started like on an inte. Physically, obviously I was outta shape. I wasn't as good as, but intellectually I could spot things that I wasn't spotting before. And it was like, but I haven't played for so long. Why is my, the, my, the brain able to operate better now after such a long break than it was when I was actually trying to, so it's a very interesting concept that I, I need to personally look into later at some point. But, , how has your life better become better now that you live in a country where you speak the language? I.

My life has definitely improved since I learned Finnish and since, , I received my Finnish citizenship in many ways. First, confidence wise, despite having all these frustrating interactions, having them in Finnish is way better than just being a weird foreigner who doesn't understand seemingly what's going on, because you will always be left out no matter which country you live in. You will be to a certain extent, left out, and it is normal if you don't speak local language. So having that kind of confidence is already great. And then of course, networks. So being able to sustain relationships with people on a deeper level is priceless because these people, the people that you surround yourself with, they become your firsts in everything. They become your confidants. They become people who can check your cvs. They become people who can answer your domestic questions. And they just become your first friends. They become people that you, you share your thoughts with. And this is all really valuable because being a foreigner in a country like Finland can be isolating. The culture itself is not extremely social, which there is nothing bad about that. But naturally it is not somewhere which, this is not an environment where you would have a thousands of friends. So understanding the value of local language and trying to use that to your advantage is a great move. And I wish I would've started sooner. I wish I would've started all the way back, but that wasn't my priority. So now we have what we have.

Understandable. Yeah, so as a follow up to that, tell me of the times when you found it most difficult to continue chasing the goal. , what was that like? what Was going through your head in that moment? In what moments?

When I had the, the, the darkest, the, the most difficult times when I struggled the most at work or just generally speaking at life, when I would have loads of frustrating interactions that would just leave me empty and, , isolated. And it was a very specific kind of feeling of always being inadequate and being frustrated given that I feel like I'm intelligent. I'm capable, I know several languages, but yet I feel like I'm not enough. And that constant need of kind of proof that was really hard. But then again, these moments, they come and go. They really do. You can't, live your whole life feeling like that. You will have moments eventually in your journey where you would feel that triumph. These breakthroughs, like understanding a song for the first time, reading a piece of paper for the first time. Speaking with a friend, making your first joke in finnish these breakthroughs. These are the things that you should really latch onto. These are the things that you really should keep close to your heart because these things will motivate you. And trying to depart from all these dark thoughts and always feeling inadequate, trying to reframe your thinking, trying to recenter these good moments will eventually get you through. And this is, this is exactly what I try to do is no matter how many times I'm gonna have this awkward interaction somewhere at vero or whatever institution, right? I think of the good times. I think of when I made a joke and everybody laughed. I think about a presentation. I think about whatever other things, you know, making this podcast, you know, you don't have to be C two level to talk about these things. These are the good ones. And these are the ones that I think a speaker should cherish, no matter the level.

Lovely, lovely. . So thank you so much for, , doing this and, , yeah, I think your story is very unique and it will provide so much value to the listeners. And again, I always try to find people from different life circumstances and stuff like that.​.