005: From Zero to Finnish Law School in 3 years - Deborah Laajanen

Yeah. Well, I know it's, I know it's difficult. I know it feels discouraging. I know it sucks, but press on because it'll be worth it. It's very important to face the fact, but also be able to overcome the challenge that is before you by doing concrete steps towards those goals. And those concrete steps may be very difficult, very nuanced, but they are all

And I feel like a lot of these things on my mind, uh, the things that drive me to do this podcast is kind of just fixing the world so that people like my parents could have a better chance. Meet Deborah Laajanen, who I found very fascinating. In fact, the way that I found her was through LinkedIn. I stumbled upon LinkedIn post of somebody who had gotten into law school, despite having been in Finland for only a few years. And having to know finnish to the extent that she can get in to do law in one of the institutions here, or to study law in one of the institutions here was, it was just really impressive. And I, so I absolutely had to reach out to her to do an interview and luckily I messaged her. I explained what we were trying to do. To, help other people. And she was very much on board and very supportive of the whole idea. So yeah, we have this great, great conversation and I can't wait for you to listen So Deborah, right? Yes. Lovely to finally have a put a face to the name . I was just going through LinkedIn looking for people who fit the description of what I want. So anyone who's learned Finnish to a really high level, so higher than almost c or c and above. And came to Finland as adults and also speaks English because the podcast is gonna be in English. And also it's harder to learn Finnish when you have no English because it's so easy to default to English because people Finns will speak English with you.

That's true

yeah. And yeah, I came across your, that you got into law school after having been, been here, what, three, four years. I.

Four years

So I was like, yeah, that's how I, I came across and yeah, I was very impressed when I called you and it was your Finnish level was like incredible. I was a bit blown away because people like who've reached that level that you've been able to reach or that we've been able to reach, are surprisingly hard to find who didn't grow up here but yeah, I'm really glad that you decided to do this. And, um, yeah. Without further ado, let me just get into the, the questions that I have. Yes. Just briefly, how does Finland show up in your life story? Like, what brought you here and how long have you been in Finland

yeah. So, um, firstly, I would like to say that I. It's my pleasure to be here and to be able to help, other learners, um, beginners of the Finnish language. So I would really like to help them to maybe to inspire them or to motivate them to study stu study, Finnish, because there's a lot of negativities as well in social media and all of those stuff. Um, but yeah, to answer your question, I came to Finland 2021 because I have a Finnish husband. So we got married 2021 and I, we decided to. To live here instead of my home country, which is the Philippines. yes, the Philippines. So I'm a Philippina, in the Philippines, I'm a licensed attorney, so I'm, uh, an attorney of law. But when I came to Finland, I was kind of expecting that it would be easy for me to somehow integrate, but then when I came to Finland, it was not like that. There's a lot of expectations when it comes to Finnish language and integration in terms of the Finnish language. And so I didn't start my integration or studying the language in my first year in 2021 because I had to get all of my certificates from my home country and, um, get my certificates and take my oath as a lawyer. But I started, uh, my integration in 2022. So officially, I stu I studied Finnish for three years on and off because in 2022 I also got pregnant. I had a very difficult pregnancy that is also at challenge in studying the language. But yeah it went well and on and off studies in three years. the intermediate level last year, so I passed it. And then, because it's not enough the University of Helsinki is requiring a B two level of Finnish proficiency. so I, I took the valtionhallinnon kielitutkinto, so I took that this year Which means I am in the fourth, fifth level of CEFR or b2 to c1, of Finnish language proficiency. And then one, just one of the requirements for law school. So master of laws and, And I thankfully passed the admission to the University of Helsinki Law School master of laws

Wow.

and yeah. That's where you found me

Yes. Yes. And this was, you made the post about a week ago, I think. Yeah. This is fresh news that you just got into the program. Wow. Wow. And you were starting, I suppose, September or August. Yeah.

Yes September.

And how does it feel having like finally gotten that out of the way?

Yeah, it, it really feels good. Honestly, it was like a burden off of my chest because you know. well the legal field is in itself nuanced. so It means it's, it's technical. Just like for example, medicine, engineering. when it comes to language, I also have to be able to understand the Finnish legal jargon so that it's also, difficult. And in the valtionhallinnon kielitutkinto what is being tested, what is being tested is not necessarily day-to-day language survival. What is being tested in that exam is your level of reasoning, your abstract level of reasoning. For example, if you are given a question in the exam of societal circumstances or governmental issues, you have to be able to express yourself in Finnish.

Wow.

so it's not, for example, a customer service call or something like that.

Yeah.

but it's something that which is very reasonable because in the university you have to be able to express yourself and reason. And be logical and in Finnish so not in English, because Finnish is the medium of communication

Right.

In master's, of course, yes.

Wow. And what was the name valtio?

kieli.

Tutkinto okay. Yeah, because I, up until I saw your post and when I, when we called, we had a phone call. I didn't even know there was a different test one could do. But yeah. And I have to admit that sounds like a lot harder just based on the fact that at least for me, 'cause I have a very technical background. So when it comes to those, that subject of governmental stuff or societal stuff. My ability to talk about it even in English. 'cause I've not gone into it much. It never makes sense to me. So I, I can imagine that would be such a difficult thing for me to do in Finnish. Yeah. So you know Bravo to you. Kudos to you on that. Yeah.

Thank you.

One of the goals of this, uh, podcast that I'm trying to do is to get people who have had different life circumstances. So that so that like when somebody's listening to this, maybe they'll be like, oh, he could do that because he was a single male or single female who had no responsibility, whatever. But I, I want to have People from diverse life situations and backgrounds to tell their lives, Their journey. So that um. The kind of things that work for you. Uh, person A might not work for person B, and the listeners can pick which elements of their learning journey that works for them. So could you, um, so in your situation you said, so your, you are a married individual and your partner is Finn. And could you just maybe describe briefly just life circumstance wise in the last three, four years for you.

Yeah. So, um, I, am married to a Finn, so people might think that, oh, that, that would be easier for her

its not

because they, they may be speaking in Finnish at home. But yes, it's not because our, let's say our love, love language is English. So we met, we talk in English, and so it's kind of, I think there's a study that, if a person speaks a different language, it kinds of gives a different impression. So that's, that's what happens to us. So we don't necessarily use Finnish every day. So we, we mainly

Right

use English. And I would also like to raise my son to be bilingual, so. my husband speaks to him in Finnish and then I speak to him in English. Um, regarding the life, um, circumstances and situation, it was difficult for me I should say, because I told you I was like adjusting to the Finnish culture, adjusting to the weather. I'm adjusting to everything. And then also I have to somehow, I have to somehow, um, start from scratch in a sense, when it comes to networking, when it comes to making friends

Yeah. and

especially career wise

right

, because I have to be able to start again on top of a difficult pregnancy on top of a lot of different adjustments that I have to because, um, well, as a lawyer, I, it's totally reasonable that in a different jurisdiction your degree is not, um, fully

Yeah.

recognized Yeah but that is also where I struggled because back home, I'm already a licensed attorney. So I start I finished bachelor's, my bachelor's degree four years, and then I finished four years of my Juris doctor. And then on top of that I have to pass the bar exam, which I prepared for one year. So all of that seems to be not recognized realistically speaking

Yeah.

in Finland, if you don't know finnish

The language. Yeah.

So yeah, the language, so that is one of the challenges that I have to face. Even if, for example, there are certain profession like international law or dealing with my immigration technical laws, it's, the opportunity is very little, especially if you don't have

Yeah.

advanced or let's say in job ads, it's usually. Advanced or, fluent Finnish, which is basically c1. C2. So that, those are my life situation. So I, I guess what we're heading to at this point is to give our listeners kind of, um, maybe, a motivation that it's not it's difficult and there is unique circumstances to every

Yeah.

But it's not impossible.

Which is, yeah. Well, um. Now my Finnish, my English is not even coming. Well, summarized. Yeah, well summarized. Yeah. My next question would've been what prompted you to learn the Finnish language? Was there a turning point or a specific need? But I think you've already kind of mentioned about that just for the professional life but being like the major reason also just Yeah. But was there like a specific turning point where before which you were not so much like gonna learn, but then

Yeah. So career wise, I, all of the job ads that I encountered enlisted advanced, or fluent Finnish. So I don't, I cannot even land a paralegal, a legal assistant job, administrative jobs without having a fluent a Finnish language. So that is a turning point career wise.

right.

But in terms of integration because when I came to Finland I, there, there's always a love and hate relationship and integration. So there's a high point, there's a low

Yeah.

There's a time where when you hate everything, and there's also a time that while that is, you know, as we all know and we all go through that, and it's even research based, that there's. different types of adjustments and integration. So what I'm trying to say is um, integration wise, it is my way of respecting the Finnish culture Because I came here, I'm an immigrant, but, um, because I respect the people, I appreciate the peace, the order and country and the people

Yeah.

So that is my way of, of, um, respecting them because I have been saying to people that integration is a bilateral relationship where I have to also, as an immigrant, an incomer a newcomer, this is my way of respecting and showing that I am

Yeah.

to learn, I'm willing to adopt, and I'm willing to embrace without losing

Is a very good point. I've never heard it, but that it's a bilateral relationship. Yeah. Because the country makes effort for you to integrate and then you also have to in turn, make some effort, I believe that's what you meant. Yeah.

Exactly.

This is a very good, uh, yeah. But, um, and okay, so basically education wise, you did, you said four years, bachelor's, four years, uh, master and then, uh prep, for that bar exam, so that's a lot of years off and I know. In my family, my, my mom did her master's here, bachelor's and master's. My dad did bachelor's, master's and was doing his PhD, and both of them struggled with getting jobs because their fields required them to know Finnish. And I feel like a lot of these things on my mind, uh, the things that drive me to do this podcast is kind of just fixing the world so that people like my parents could have a better chance. And yeah, because there's this, and then there's another thing that I've been thinking of doing a podcast about, which is also something that I wish my parents knew back then. So I, I really relate

Precisely.

with that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so now let's dive into the, the boring part, which is so walk me a bit through your learning journey, like what things worked and what didn't.

At the beginning of my Finnish language journey I was put in a class where it's already the fast learners group, but at some point in that class, my, one of my classmates was like, which I got a perfect score in one of our quizzes. And was already at the maybe at the latter part of the, of that class, because that is a, to a one, to a 2.2 level. And then she said that, why are you even here? You're already in the advanced level. So what I'm trying to say is that didn't somehow work for me I was put in a class where I could be in another, I could be categorized in another class, which could maybe more which could be. Faster, a faster learners

So they put you with people who were not say, picking it up as quickly as you were.

yeah. Yeah. So I was in that class but this people, I'm not I'm not in any way underestimating anyone, but that is the result of the exams and, and their own evaluation of how I am and how I speak and

Based on their evaluation that you should have been a bit faster. Yeah.

somewhere . Else.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, but yeah that, I think there should be more categorization of learners. Um, but, but then after that I enrolled in a summer intensive. Intensive Finnish class, and that is for professionals. So that is every night we have two to three hours of class. And that is, I think, where I fit most because I, my classmates are like also professionals,

Yeah. engineers

and doctors and all that. So that is where that is the time when I'm preparing for the YKI intermediate test

right.

So I think that that helped a lot, those classes that I enrolled in during that time. And what work, um, was that I learned the grammar,

Uh, just a moment before, before we go into what worked, before we go into what worked. Um, let's say you've been in Finland for four-ish years, so that's 48 months, I suppose. In which, from which month or from which year did you join the integration program?

2022.

that's about a year into being in Finland, right? The second year. Yeah. And then and when did you realize that this was, um, that, that you should be moved to maybe a faster or next level class?

I think three months

Three months in?

in the, in my, yes. Three months in, in my first integration class

So basically

integration class.

to that level zero. Your from zero to that level was just like really fast for you. Like you just picked it up really fast. Is that what happened or?

Yeah, I think so, because that class is a, um, well, beginner, zero to a

Yeah.

0.2. Yeah. So, and they were,

And then, and I'm guessing since you only started in like year two, in the year one, your brain had kind of passively been picking things up maybe or what do you think as the advantage?

yes passively I'm listening a lot to people and trying to process. Of course you cannot really understand everything and you cannot even grasp, especially if people speak in a very fast And in puhekieli,

yeah,

so I, I really cannot but I can pick up some words and, um, because I'm, it, it could also be attributed to my profession because I'm a lawyer, I think logically a lot. I wanted to process information in my head. Okay, so this is how he said this sentence. So this is the subject, this is the verb, and this is how, it's just like I'm processing it in my Although I'm not yet learning the language at that time because I have to, to go back to the Philippines and during that in my first year to be able to get my license and take the lawyers also.

Ah, okay. So you had to go back to kind of finish that. The law aspect. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Yes.

then, okay, so you go back, you start you, and then you came back before you started the integration course. Okay. And then, then in that summer you do an intensive, so the summer of year two basically is when you do the intensive, evening course thing.

No. I did an intensive course

Yeah.

in my, after this six

Integration program.

months-ish

Yeah.

integration class. Yes. Yes. And then I did a separate in intensive course after that for the JKI test

okay. Okay. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Alright. Okay. Yeah, I just wanted to understand the timeline so far. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And okay. Yeah. Then you were, now you were going on about, um, what's worked. Yeah.

Yes. Sure. What worked is I listened a lot and just like what I mentioned already, I listen to people talk. I listen to my husband, talk with his friends. I listen to selkouutiset

It is a very good one. I

also use that. Yes. And because my, I have a baby then, or I'm kind of looking for programs for babies, for kids, and also

Ah, look

at those easy Finnish. I also watch moomit or those stuff

a great cheat code baby stuff. Yeah.

And yeah, and I, because I'm also musically inclined, so I also listen to songs I sing and I learn songs. And those are like, I think, easier to. It's a lot easier to learn the language when you're enjoying it. So for example, if, if the, I love the, the song and I know it's equivalent version in English and it's translated and Finnish. So I could sing it in Finnish because I understand every word I know it in English. So there are gospel

Oh, right. Yeah.

I, so, that's, are that would be how

Yeah.

And after there is those reference books used in the Program. So suomen mestari , so there's suomen mestari 1, 2, 3

Yeah.

4 so those are like the reference books that we use. Those are also helpful

Right.

There are certain influencers and people who would like to, say that there's a certain hard and fast rule in learning the language, but I'm not an expert at all. I'm not a

Yeah,

but in my experience personally there's no hard and fast rule in learning the language because there are so many methods, which doesn't necessarily work for me, which would perhaps work for you.

Exactly.

yeah, so, and also there's a lot of factors which you have to take in, for example, your native language, your second

Yeah.

third

Yeah.

all of that. uh, yeah, so that's, that's what worked for me. And during the, my preparation for YKI test intermediate last year. So I already read for the most part so suomen mestari 1 ,2, 3. So I have already the finished, somehow the grammar aspect, which is very important because there's a grammar aspect in the That could be attributed to the fact that just like what I told you, that this, my, my, my brain works brain in such a way that I need to understand the reason or the why behind

Yeah

the sentence .

Yeah,

so that's and if I understand that, then that then I am able to use it aswell

right. I, in my, 'cause I'm a software developer and, and I started trying to copy the good behaviors that I see from the senior devs that I've seen, and there's one particular guy, if you say anything and it does not remotely. If remotely does not make sense, he will question you until it's concretely clearly. Makes sense. And that's one habit that I'm trying to pick up just generally in my life. Yeah. Shout out to him. And so, yeah, I, I completely, and ever since I kind of started doing that, I've started noticing in some aspects of my life I need things to be very explicitly said. Yeah. And if they're not, it just,

true.

yeah. But yeah, see how that would help with grammar and language especially

Yes. And I, I'm not yet done because in the vkt, in valtionhallinnon So that is just like what we discussed earlier, it's a lot harder because it's, it's an abstract level of Finnish language So to prepare for that, I did read lots of complex Finnish language, for example. Not, not anymore selkouutiset

Oh yeah,

but other, for example, magazines. well, in my case, in my profession, I read Finnish research, Finnish thesis. Um, and I listened to podcasts. I actually posted about this when I passed the vkt, so I did, I listed some of the things that I did when I prepared for the vkt

yeah.

So I also listened a lot to podcasts or in, in which are Finnish legal podcasts So they're talking about the Finnish Legal realm or the Finnish jurisdiction and the Finnish legal issues. And I try to follow that.

right.

so it's, it's one thing to understand one person talking, but it's another thing to be able to understand two people talking and somehow well, Finnish people do not speak on top of eachother, interrupting each other, but still, it's a different context when it's

Right. And this, and the pace is a bit different as well if there's two people having a conversation. Yeah.

Yeah. So I try to be able to understand it and my, when my husband, or when my in-laws are talking with each other, I try to

Okay.

Yes.

Podcasts were a huge part of my learning journey as well, like massive parts. I just basically took all of my interests in podcast related interests and just found, Finnish versions of that in just like in 2022 when I did that one year intensive thing. . If, would you, off the top of your head, would you happen to remember some of the podcasts you listen to? Because I also am interested in, especially Finnish criminal law because fingers crossed, I've never had to deal with anything like that. And I don't have, and I only know about law from American series, and I have no idea how criminal law works in Finland.

Uh, yeah, so I am, I listen to pääkäsittelyssä so it's a, Finnish podcast. It's a very good podcast because it interviews different lawyers or attorney at laws in Finland. So it's, it's a very informative as well. And also it takes into account their experience as well, the, in the inter interviewer's experience in the legal field and their specializations. And also Juristipodi. So I also listen to that. And what off of the top of my head and there are also in YouTube, there are also Finnish teachers, but this is much more when I'm preparing for the JKI test. So there are those and there are certain channels in YouTube as well that I follow

Okay.

and also there's also one another, one more. It's not a podcast, it's also in YouTube, but it's Lotta. So she, she's trying to say that it's a lot easier to learn, Finnish when you are observing, when you are absorbing it So that is her way um, learning the language. So those are off of the top

right, right. Lovely.

yeah.

So actually the next question is, what resources did you use and were there any ah yes, this one? Were there any that you, with how or useless they were

The suomen mestari that I use for the JKI tests are, they are very useful for me. I know that some people do not really like grammar and somehow, of course, but I think of it as a foundation. So even if I don't, not yet fluent in the Finnish language. I think that about grammar is helpful for me personally. So I, I wouldn't say that that is not profitable or beneficial. What is not beneficial okay. At least in the classes, in my Finnish language classes with classmates and the teachers. I think what is not useful at all is much activities and too much activities where you talk with another classmate or what I'm trying to say is I, if you are talking with a person who is below your level or with, with the same level, there's little margin for your, for you to learn more. But if you talk, for example, with a native finn or that, or a person whose level is higher than yours the ch chances are you will learn more. But in the classes where I wa I was before, there are lots of exercises. That we are tasked to, okay. Talk about this topic with your classmate

Yeah,

or, I know that there, that at a certain level, of course

right.

it is beneficial and for certain

Yeah,

it's

I was just gonna say that. Yeah.

but yeah but for me I don't think it's that much of a benefit for me

Okay. Okay. This is a very, uh, unique, like a hot take. I need to keep this in mind. Yeah. And okay, so suomen mestari and, uh, was very good resource and podcasts you mentioned earlier. And, um, what else? Did you mention?

Videos,

YouTube videos? Yeah. Did on social media. Do you, did you follow people on social media that helped with this?

Uh, no, not really. I wasn't really following and I couldn't really find many.

Okay. Okay.

Except for this, YouTube channel, which is Gimara who is a Finnish

Gimara?

teacher. I think that's, Gimara

Okay. Alright.

I think that's quite useful

Okay. I will check this Gimara. So apart from the speaking exercise being kind of useless for you or not very beneficial there? Any other one? Any other thing?

Yeah. Um, maybe during, during my, one of my integration classes, we were asked to watch a movie, Finnish movie, but that, that time I think it's useless we are, what is our level? Our level is like A two or something

Hmm.

But of course when you watch a movie and the movie is not like yle selkouutiset , then it will be. Difficult, especially if there's no text So if there's

Subtitles?

Captions, subtitles,, I don't think that's also beneficial

Okay. Okay. but You feel like if you had been more advanced, then it would have made sense. Okay.

Yes, that's true. It's very important to be able to give exercises which are in line with your level of Proficiency.

Okay.

Yeah.

What observations have you made about people learning Finnish

Yeah. At least in Finnish, uh, in Finland, there are immigrants who were able to learn the language fast. For example, when they just like what you did, they. Totally immerse themselves to the Finnish culture, the Finnish language, without shifting to their native language or without shifting to, English. So I have in my I was in the lab University of Applied Sciences. it's a six month 30 credit program for immigrants. So I did that program before I took the valtionhallinnon kielitutkinto, I enrolled in that, but you have to be at least B1 in order to enroll in that program. So I enrolled many applied, 22 students were chosen, and 20¨plus students were chosen and we studied. in, that course there were several. Exercises, which are very, beneficial because we are asked to report on a thesis on our field. We are asked to report on a nuanced topic on our field in Finnish. We are asked to summarize, um, legal texts or texts in line with our profession. And, well, because this is al already an advanced class in Finnish, but I think that it's beneficial. And my classmates during that time, they don't speak in English. of them are Russians, most of them are Ukrainians. But I was quite surprised that their level of Finnish is almost the same as mine. what I'm trying to say is that they were able to get to that level because they do not have the option to shift

to English.

English.

This is a

Yeah.

percent this. I, I always tell people this, this is, this is, yeah, because I, in, in the previous podcast, when I just explained how I did it, it was like I observed that those who are learning the language and learning it fast, what advantages or disadvantages do they have? And it's like, okay, well, they don't speak English, so they can't switch to English. Okay, next step is how do I simulate that for myself? And so, and that required a lot of like willpower and discipline. There were days where I was just a little too tired, but, uh, yeah. So I just doing, simulating that environment for myself was really what, that was the entire goal of 2022 for me. And I remember even, 'cause I was dating somebody who was native Finnish and uh, or spoke Finnish on a native level. And I remember telling her that, Hey, we're only gonna speak Finnish. And that was a huge deal because you're in a relationship. So it's a bit different. And having arguments and then it's like, wait, hold on. Lemme think about what I need to say. Yeah. And you know, God bless her heart she, uh, she uh, what is God? She had the patience for it. Yeah. And, um, yeah, that was not, I can imagine that was not a little fun, but yeah. Hundred percent that just force yourself don't switch to English. And then maybe you have a few, a few if it's like a diet, you have a few cheat days here and there, but Yeah.

That's true. Yeah. That's very effective. It takes a lot of mental power mental effort, but it's worth it.

yeah. Yeah. Alright. So are there any surprising or unconventional things that you did that most people might not necessarily think of?

Unconventional ways. I don't think if it's unconventional at all, but what I do, for example, if listen, for example, to a certain podcast and I don't understand a phrase or an idiomatic expression, they say and Then I make a mental note or actually take out an actual notebook, a small notebook, and then I write it down that phrase, and then I search. search it later on when I get home, or I make sure that I know what it means, or I ask chat. GPT. I ask AI about, its significance, its meaning and all of that. And during my preparation for the VKT, that is also a lot of help because I don't have, you know, a teacher that I could ask what this, what does this term mean? Because there are certain words which use in your daily life, which is a completely different meaning in the legal jargon

Yeah.

which i have to know

Yeah.

So even if you are just in a level of you're trying to reason and you're trying to express yourself on governmental and societal issues that's very important that I, I know that certain phrase and that certain word, and then I write it down and then I make sure that I And I.

Okay. That's a I'm, I'm, I'm a bit jealous because I, uh, I think Chat Gpt came out a bit like, I think literally the year after I finished that one year.

Oh,

And The specific the same thing you did with them taking a mental note? Well, in my case, I would, it was usually from books and then I would Like, maybe I'll underline it and then I'll come back to it and then put it in Excel. Find example sentences for it. Quizlet memorize a couple times and it took so much time and effort, so much time and, and then that literally the next year Chat Gpt comes out. And then when I started using it, like, oh my goodness, what a cheat code this would've been for that. Yeah. Because yeah, literally like, uh uh, and then, and then when I realized that you can actually use chatGPT in Finnish, I was like, what? That was crazy.

Yeah. it was. It was really a recent Just.

Yeah. But um, uh, on the unconventional things, I think one thing that you mentioned that I think is quite unconventional is the fact that because you had a baby and then by extension the baby, the content, the baby consumes is easy stuff. So that I think also definitely helped. Yeah. But that's something I would definitely make a mental note whenever I'm talking to people about this that, yeah. And then so we, we said that this requires a lot of like mental strength or willpower to kind of force things like that. But one thing I've noticed is that because you can't always have mental strength, it's kind of like, you go into the gym, you can't carry the weight all the time, you know, so the, something useful that helps generally with goals anyways is to have things that are passively set up so that you don't have to necessarily actively do things. In your case, what are the passive things that you did, like things that have already been set up or they happened to be in a way that just helped you along with your goal?

Yeah, I think I could mention the course that I enrolled through. So it's the course, uh, 30 credit course. And it's offered in University of Applied Sciences. It's for immigrants and it's, of course, it's already set up in such a way that the student the end, at the end of the six month will be able to reach B two. So I think that it's a very effective course and it's, it's really worth to enroll in that course, especially if you're a highly educated. Immigrant and you wanted to be able to dig deeper to the, to your own profession and to the Finnish language aspect of your profession. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So basically the fact that Enroll, you just all you have to do, just show up to it. So in that regard it's kind of pass

show up

Okay. Okay. What about things like, I dunno, set up your phone so that it's in one language or you have, You make sure that the hobbies that you enrolled in are majority Finnish people or things like that. Is there any other thing that was passively or? One guy I interviewed actually, he said he had paternity leave so for him it was just like things that just happened to be in a certain way. So you just took advantage of it to help you with your goal?

Um, is a little difficult for me too. Answer because I actually actively So for example the language in the phone or the settings in your phone that it has to be in Finnish. I think to my mind it's an active way of learning because if you set, set it up in Finnish. So I, I cannot really think at the moment of something that is passive except for the course

Okay.

that I mentioned

Okay.

And this could be, um, somehow when you surround yourself with people who speak in

Yeah,

Finnish So I have also those people around me, like, um, old people and the family and like the community that I am also in and. also asking people, this could also be somehow active learning but just asking people to, not to shift to English when they You or when they are speaking

yeah.

to let them speak Because finns are very considerate. They're going to shift in

English for you Yeah.

when they, when they see that you're struggling. So just give them a heads up that, okay. Go ahead, speak in Finnish and do not mind At all. Yes. Because I'm learning.

but, so I think that's actually a very good example of what I mean by the, the passive thing, because the things you, you just have to have the conversation with the person once or twice, and then after that,

Yes.

it just naturally works in that way. Or then with the phone, you set it up once and then after that, it just naturally reinforces you don't have to every day go turn the phone to Finnish or every day go turn the person to switch, to Finnish. So that's, that's kind of what I mean by Yeah. And, um, yeah, but also with surrounding yourself with people that, uh, who are, who can't, who don't know the English or can't speak English, that's also a very good, good one that you Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Then the flip side of the question, which is what are the active things that you did or that maybe you've never had the opportunity to say mention so far? Like did you have a study routine, speaking habit, et cetera? Things that you like, force it to be that way. Yeah.

yeah, so I during my preparation to

yeah. JKI

test, I have the integration course, and right after that I enrolled to the intensive Course, but while also doing the intensive course, I try, I, I said to my husband that even though it's really hard for him to follow, because I, told you our love language is English, he tries to speak Finnish at home. And with other people and with the family. So that is actively, that is during the time I'm preparing for JKI test. But more so in my preparation for the VKT, I try to just immerse myself just like what you did, uh, immerse yourself to the language without an option for other except for understanding. Of course, you have when you are trying to understand, for example, a term or a phrase, you have to translate it and you have to

Yeah.

of course, use your native language

Yeah.

whatever language it is. What else did I do? Yes. And in watching movies, in whatever original language it is, there should be a Finnish,

Subtitles.

subtitles.

a very good one.

yes,

Yeah.

too. Yes. And whenever I go for a walk, whenever I go to gym, what is in my, what default do I listen to is finnish

Okay. Podcast,

yeah. So it's podcasts and music

Yeah. .

So that's what I did

yeah,

, Off the top of my head

yeah,

Yeah,

I, I remember now that you mentioned that I remember specifically because it's just some days I just did not feel like, I just did not feel like it. But then

true.

yeah, because for, I remember I was interested in like investing and then like real estate and stuff like that. And then there's I think like postanasuntoja podcast And sometimes I just do not feel like it. I just wanna have a nice time and then I have to switch on and do it anyways. And yeah. What conscious changes did you make in your life that made it easier to practice than to not practice?

Okay. So I think because I went through a lot, as a person, I went through a lot back in my home country to be like a

Okay.

I went through lots of things, lots of sufferings, and it takes lots of discipline. So I integrated the same in my Finnish language learning, discipline is hard, resilience is hard, but, um, when it comes to, um, mindset I have been well my life, in my childhood until my a. Adult life. I have lots of circumstances in my life where I have to have a mindset of survival I have to have a mindset of discipline. And it's not hard, but know what you think is what you are. So be before being a lawyer, I have this I set goals and I make sure that I Them. And I think that's very important as well in learning a language

right.

Because of course, just like what you said, there are days where it'll be very difficult. There are days where you, you will meet people who will just, you speak, uh, Finnish, and then they will just correct automatically

Yeah.

Sometimes it's impolite, sometimes it's maybe out of care if you would interperate it that way. So there will be discouragement and there will be people who will not accommodate to you. But if you like, let those outward factors affect your inner motivation. The problem or the challenge will be in insurmountable. so that is what I've said in my mind, that if I am, in Finland. I am with my family. My son or my future children are going to live here, then I have to be able to integrate in Finland and be able to learn and advance in the language as well. So that is my mindset that

so basically the, the kind of conscious things that helped you to practice instead of not practice was just, just the the having the constant kind of reminder for yourself of that you can and that okay. That you've done difficult things before, so you can do this again. Okay. Alright. Yeah I, I kind of relate on, on, on that on that subject. And the thing you mentioned about sometimes some people correct you and it's not fun or like, uh, or people are, some people are discouraging. Yeah. I remember in, 'cause in my case I told on, I was like 2022 is the year, so on the 31st December or first January of the pre, yeah. I just put it on my, all my social media that if, you know, because I don't wanna have the conversation with every single person. Hey, speak, Finnish. Speak, Finnish with me. Speak, Finnish. So I just put it there. If you know me and you speak, Finnish, we're only speaking Finnish. And there was one guy, and you know how the human brain has this thing where it just remembers negative emotions a little more than it should, even though you'd like to keep the Yeah. There was one specific guy, no names mentioned, who was like, oh, why are you telling everybody this and you're just seeking attention? I'm like, and it just Really enraged me. But at the same time too, it's, I, I have to do what's best for me. Yeah. And then, yeah.

That's true

Yeah. So I, I really, really like, I, I relate on that part of the, yeah. I've realized that integration is a huge factor because like, um, a lot of people from. From wherever they're coming from. They come here and then they spend a lot of their time with people from the same country. And like, I've noticed that a lot with,

Thats true

even with, and that's one of the reasons why I started doing this. Because I'm from Ghana and I've made a lot of Ghanaians, and then they ask me what tips I have for living here. And then my first thing is a language thing. But I've noticed that it's very hard for them to implement it because they spend their time with people from the same country a lot of the time. And yes, the brain wants comfort water flows where it's easiest kind of. And the brain wants comfort, so it just will gravitate towards those kind of things. But, um, how, How have you integrated yourself into Finland and do you have in groups in your life who it's easy to kind of force to speak, Finnish with you, of course you mentioned some But Yeah.

Yeah. Have, don't have a language partner necessarily where that person is, like the one who is like accountability partner who pushes you speak in Finnish. But I am put in certain, uh, circumstances where I have to, because I have set my goals, for example, that I am going to pass JKI intermediate test in my second year of learning the language, and i'm going pass the VKT

That's crazy.

in my third year, my third year.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I, I, I've said it for myself and so I did whatever it takes in order realize the goals. And I haven't mentioned this is also very important, you know, in, in any other language, in whether it's English, whether it's your native English, uh, language, you have to be able to read a lot in order to speak a lot and use the language. So that is the case with my English, because I'm, my English is my second language and I finished my law school, my doc my my thesis doctor thesis in English as well. But in order for me to do that, I have to be able to read a

Right.

English. And I think that that is also very important in Finnish, especially if you are the person is aiming for higher level of Finnish And if the person is a highly educated immigrant who wants to integrate in his profession and wanted to be able to understand the jargons of his profession

Yeah.

So that is what I did, I, I also read a lot nuanced text, essays, research books and even for fun. So if there's a novel, for example, or if there's a book that you want that, you know, there's, there's a version in English, read it So those are like the goals that I have set for myself. And I don't have this, just like with this bubble in international bubble, where I have, we have a Filipino community in Lahti and I speak to them in Tagalog or in Philippine because they speak to

Tagalog. Yes. The, yes. I didn't wanna embarrass myself. I was gonna ask what your native language is, and I know I've seen it written. I've seen it written, but I don't know how to pronounce it correctly. Tagalog. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. So they speak to me in Tagalog and I respond in Tagalog because I think it's polite. So although in, in learning circumstances such as in class, of course you speak in Finnish and those people I don't necessarily force them to speak to me in Finn, but in learning context to be Finnish. So in, in, in my classes when I wanted to report or with my in-laws who are Finn. So those are like the places and the circumstances were, I kind of immersed myself to the Finnish language

Okay. Okay. Right. Yeah. And I think you've also mentioned like all the courses and then also Yeah, just uh, basically your baby is also practically Finnish, so that's integration right there And yeah,

Yes.

from, okay. From your experience when people don't succeed at Learning Finnish or they kind of maybe yeah. Don't succeed at Learning Finnish, what has usually been the reason just from your outside perspective?

Yeah. I, I think you know this already. You see lots of posts and you in, in social media of how hard Finnish is and how difficult it's for, or even impossible. It's for people to learn it. think it all boils down to to the person's, inner motivation and also inspiration, and also the why of learning Finnish. like the why in your profession, why are you doing professional Because there will be, along the way in learning the Finnish language, there will be discouragements and there will be this statistically only 2% of immigrants, reach , the advanced level Finnish

2%.

And yes, and of course, we have to be able to be, for me, to my mind, there are certain life situations where of course it is impossible. So for example, if you're a family man. if you're a family person, your work is eight to five and all of that, and you can just, you just couldn't sque

Yeah. squeeze

it then at that point it could be impossible for you. But to say that it's totally I don't think that should be the very important to have a mindset that you can, you can learn the language just as you are able to learn other things in your life

Right.

your hobbies, your And all of that.

, You mentioned the thing about your the why and then the, basically the kind of I, the last person I interviewed, which is the episode I'm gonna, it's not yet released by, its fully gonna released today or tomorrow. I was, the why was included that she literally lost custody of her kids because she did not understand fully what she was signing. And and yeah. And then this concept that you talk about just of the inner, the self-talk, the inner self-talk, where you, if you're thinking that the thing is, um, impossible, then obviously you're not going to be able to do it. It's just, yeah, the kind of mindset about it. And she said the exact same thing that she uses self, like you are self prejudiced in that you're gonna fail basically at doing the things. And Another thing I've noticed is that I think humans, when we, when we grow up and we don't, we're not forced to go to school anymore. We struggle to gather the courage or the force ourselves to go learn new. I

true.

something like that and yeah. But that was a very good, uh, explanation of, yeah. And then another one is, so what did you do that others did not do?

I, I dwelled in the. Nuanced. what with that I meant, what I mean is a certain level of Finnish where you are able, for example, to survive in the streets or in the store, or you go to the mall or you go to the shop, or you talk to a government employee. Or there are certain situations where, um, there's a certain level of Finnish where you can survive all of that. So there's one thing that I think it's not only me of course, but I think there are not so many people who does the same. Where you try to, learn the Finnish language in such a way that you are able to participate in a societal or in a governmental or in academic level. So I think that is very important. What you just mentioned about the woman who lost custody, being a mother, that's very. That's, that sounds very devastating.

Yeah.

And of course, as, as a lawyer, that is, the repercussions of, of not being able to practice law. And I know that my passion lies in law and that is, I think it, it's, it's

Right. Right.

for me. so that's what I did. I theoretically speaking, it sounds like cliche, but it's very important to have the mindset put away the negativities. Very, it's very important for me. I'm always very a factual, logical person. And you face the fact Finnish language is difficult. It is a Language. But once you have faced, once you faced that fact, and that's a challenge. You don't stop with just knowing the fact. you do things in such a way that you're able to hurdle those facts

Yeah.

The challenge. So that is what I did. So there are so, so many sentiments over social media that Finnish languages are very difficult and it's even impossible. Of course. Consider very, you have to be empath, you have to emphasize with people when they say that it's impossible for them. But to a certain level, to my mind, I think not true It's it's not insurmountable and it's not It's very important to face the fact, but also be able to overcome the challenge that is before you by doing concrete steps towards those goals. And those concrete steps may be very difficult, very nuanced, but they are all

But the, yeah, the thing you're talking about that people think of, of it as being insurmountable or impossible Just, uh, what is it called? It's, um, I like to think about this. Like, if this journey takes it's all a journey and it takes X amount of steps. So if it's 10,000 steps as opposed to 5,000 for Spanish, or 2000 for, I don't know, Italian or whatever, then one foot in front of the other, and then you will get there. It's, it sucks, but one foot for the other, and then you will get to the thing and just have to keep the mood that allows you to keep going regardless of, yeah. I forgot to mention when you said that, only about 2% are able to reach advanced level of the language, of Finnish language. I did not realize this. I did not, I did not know this was a thing until I started looking for people to interview for this podcast. And I I'm a, I'm an extrovert. I have a quite good network of people in Finland and it is incredibly hard to find people who came to Finland after the age of 15 and have been able to learn, Finnish to a high level. And especially people who spoke English when they came to Finland. It's incredibly hard to find, uh, such people and yeah. So the 2% statistic that he says makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense, yeah. Yeah. Right. But, um, sorry. Now we've talked a lot of, um, what is it called? I don't know, technical things. And I want to kind of humanize the person who is behind the who I'm interviewing. There's a random question I came across on the internet. What is a food that reminds you the most about your childhood?

I the first thing honestly that came to my mind is rice,

Rice.

because I'm an Asian, but that could be, you know, hilarious. But, um, well, the first the, now I'm going to answer seriously the food that it's, uh, dessert food, but it's also made

Okay.

So it's because it's what my father brings to me from work. So it's bco.

It's called

So it's a sweet rice. A rice that is made to be a dessert. So that's what reminds me of my childhood. There's nothing like, there's nothing, no, like nothing like that in Finland

right.

But of course there is in my home

A Sweet Rice. And then the follow up to that is actually, so, yeah. Sweet Rice. Does it have a specific name in Philipp? In Philippines?

Yes. In

Yeah.

In Tagalog. It's called Biko

Biko. Okay. Biko.

Yeah. It's

Is there a, what is the like story around it, like in your childhood?

Yeah. The, the story around it

Yeah.

around it. Yeah. Um, just like what I mentioned earlier, I didn't live a lot a convenient life. I didn't have a an easy childhood. So I was raised in poverty. I have five older brothers, and I'm the youngest. So we are six in the family. And you could imagine we're, I, we're living in the Philippines and we are poor. And, and every time that my father, um, gets his salary or something like that, he, he comes home and he brings that to me. And I know that it's his

Wow.

favourite food, but he doesn't touch, he doesn't touch it until. Or even if it's until it's gone already. Until we, we are able to have it. Or I, because I'm the youngest

Wow.

youngest daughter. Yeah. So it's, it's a very, what I'm trying to say is it reminds me of my childhood, the difficulties of my childhood, and also my motivation to, to, you know, to, to press forward and to remember the sacrifices of my parents and the survival mode That I had when I was back in my home country, and being able to, to reach my dream profession in my country

Yeah.

which I am also aiming for

Right.

in FInland

And considering your background, I don't know how things work in, in Philippines, but I could, considering the background, I can also imagine how difficult it was to just to get in the school and then to finance that and all of that. And so like, yeah,

that's true

that's quite a remarkable, uh, yeah, definitely resilient. It's funny 'cause the word resilience came up also in the last episode that I did. And I said, um, it's a word that people kind of, oh, resilience is so cool. It's a great thing. But in the moment when you're being resilient, it sucks. It's,

it does

yeah.

it does

Yeah. But, um, alright. And okay, so this, now back to the kind of the more technical parts again and just now a bit of a rapid fire thing. And so From my kind of analysis of during this, there was like six parts of learning a language. And I just wanna quickly go through and then you just tell what are the methods that you use to achieve or to improve those parts of the language, right? So with vocabulary, let's start with vocabulary.

Um, listen and read a lot

Listen, read a lot.

Listen and read a lot with vocabulary and take note the words and phrases which are not familiar

Okay. And then when you do take notes, how do you get them to become a part of you?

. If there's any time for it. Recite them and use them in actual

Okay.

and in actual context. So, because we, know, are, we learn languages effectively when they are put in context. So you, in vocabularies, especially if, if the context is a store, a context is customer service. If the context is school or you have to be able to con contextualize the words and, and the vocabulary. And in that way you'll be able to absorb them use them

yeah.

better

Okay. And, um, for the memorizing, did you use Quizlet or, I personally use Quizlet. I just wanna know what the, what did you use for memorizing? Yeah.

I'm not really memorizing. I don't know why. Of it is because in law school I don't, there are certain laws you have to memorize

Yeah.

but in order for you to be able to be a good lawyer, you have to know the law by heart. You have to know the logic of it. And that's what I do aswell

Oh

well. If there's a word if

yeah.

I learn it by And what it means and the It, and the context whereby I'll be able

Okay. Okay. And then for the speaking, what are, yeah, what things, how did you improve the speaking?

Just speak this sounds like a cliche. It sounds like a cliche, but you really just really have to speak in different contexts. Just like what I said earlier, you have to be able to speak, but in certain circumstances where you have an option to shift, then don't shift in, in your native language and in nuanced themes or topics. Practice, practice your speaking before a mirror or before someone else who knows the topic aswell

Yeah. Okay. And then with listening,

Listening is listen a lot, so you have to be able to just like what I mentioned earlier, you. Immerse yourself with the language with. So you, of course, you can listen to your native language, to the songs and podcasts in your native language, but if you are in the process of learning a second language, then immerse yourself with just that

Yeah. And then grammar

Grammar is read a lot and make mind maps. I, I do

mind maps, when

I was in law school, so you, I take note of, like, for example, when we were, I, when I was studying, studying poverty,

uh.

so there's plural, singular, the partitive case , then I make a mind map or how, how does it work? What's the structure of this? So there are different types of sentence structures, types of sentences. Then I write it down, what's the structure, what does it look like? And I, I like writing. I learn also effectively when I write. So I do that too when it comes to grammar also read a lot when you, because when you read a lot, you see how the sentence is constructed

Yeah.

and then in your mind you process a subject, the verb, the object and the relationship

Alright. And then number five of the list is well reading. What did you read and with what regularity, and then I suppose, what did you read at the beginning of the learning journey?

At the beginning, yes. At, at the beginning. Of course. Start with easy start with well, there are lots of source sources, um, of easy Finnish or selkosuomi or selkouutiset, you could use that and then as you progress, then make it a little bit more difficult, a little bit more nuanced, a different context. And then until you get to the abstract level of

Were you like, um, children's books at the beginning or articles at the beginning, or which at that stage, what was it more of?

Yeah it's a combination of news and also and also books which are written, the books, the books that this offered in the integration program. For example, in you there it is also in accordance to your level. So if it's level one, then it's easy to understand.

they like, they're like novels or what?

level.

Are they novels or what are they? These books.

no, not really novels. Inside

yeah. the grammar

books, there are, there, there could be letters, there could be There could be conversations. So there are different types

And then what about, um, with writing? I think that's the sixth one. Writing. Yeah.

Yeah, in, in writing. Well, at least for my part, I, especially the latter part of my advanced Finnish studies, I write an article in Finnish in my, related to my profession. So as part of the 30 credit program that I was in, I have to be able to make an article based on the new Finnish law on immigration. I write that in, in, in Finnish and how was I just right? And then as you go improve it, make it more complex. And of course, start with simple sentences. Low. And then as you progress and as you're able to understand grammar, then make the sentence complex and more like the complex books and articles if you read in advanced .

Right, okay. Okay. I noticed this is going a bit long and I hope it's not too much of a issue, but I think

no no it's okay

Okay, good.

its my pleasure

I'm glad. Yeah. Yeah. I think maybe five, 10 minutes and we should be, yeah. Um, okay. So tell me of the times when you found it most difficult to continue chasing the goal.

Yes. When I reached, last year, in my second year of learning the language, when you get to middle level . So this is B1 Or a2.2 to B1. When you get to that level, I said to my teacher, yeah, I, I think I said it, someone that I reach, a plateau where I feel like I'm not advancing and then I was able to talk with a linguist and she said that of course, because in order for you to get from intermediate to advance, some people takes a lifetime to be able to reach that level. It's quite understandable because when you, when you get from intermediate to advanced, advanced means that you're able to reason, you're able to express yourself well in Finnish, in which, in, in logic, in facts, in statistics, and in your. Own nuance knowledge or profession. So it makes sense when she says that. So that I hit a plateau

Yeah.

But just like what I told you earlier, I made the these radical steps, which I think not many does. So you do what is difficult. You read a lot, you listen to podcasts and you list firms Takes a lot of time, although you have a lot of other responsibilities. But you still It. that's, that's how I was able to advance after reaching a plateau in my

right.

learning Finnish.

your Case the difficult, what we found the most difficult when you were putting in the effort, but then you were not seeing any improvement. , And your solution for that was in essence to find like to actively seek what is difficult. Okay. Yeah, because I've, I've heard something like this before in, I think there's a book called "So Good They Can't Ignore You," I think it's called and or then in some TED Talk where the guy was saying if you get to Serena Williams level of tennis to get better, it's probably gonna, to get significantly better is probably gonna take just as much time as it took for her to get from zero to that level. And yeah. So yeah, that is,

yeah.

Um, yeah. And but in terms of motivation wise, I think from what we. You just, you have that kind of mindset of just reminding yourself to kind of keep going. So that was mainly what I was kind of going for. Like in the times when you felt like tired. But, um, okay. Yeah. Lemme just rewind to the next one. What words of encouragement can you give to anyone who has like gotten fed up with trying to get to this goal?

Yeah. Well, I know it's, I know it's difficult. I know it feels discouraging. I know it sucks, but press on because it'll be worth it.

And then how has your life become better now that you live in a country where you finally speak the language?

Okay. Uh, it got a lot better because you, you know, when I, I know that you understand where I coming from when I, I wasn't, when I am not yet that professional in the language, I feel like I'm an outsider. But when I became professional to the language, now I feel that I am, fully actually integrating. This is personal wise so that is um, it got a lot better and I was able to like, appreciate a lot more and understand a lot more because delving with the language of a people group for example, you're able to understand more of their culture, more of the beauty of All of that. So that is, I think that's quite an experience to be able to integrate is also to be able to understand a lot of the background of things, the history and where they're, they

yeah. coming from. It's why the language is very important

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. For me, just like, I don't know, the quality of life was just 'cause I'm in my twenties and I'm thinking, Am I really gonna spend my twenties in a, in a country where. I can't I can't even make jokes to the cashier 'cause I have to take two minutes to think about the joke and things like that. Or I can't, I don't know, go on dates with somebody because they don't speak English and I don't speak Finnish well enough and things like that. It was just the quality of life was like, no, I needed to do something about it. And then at work as well, I could see everyone who was higher than me spoke Finnish. And I was like it's, it was affecting my pockets. So,

so

yeah. Yeah.

That's true.

actually, yeah, that is the, that was the last question. Yeah.

Right

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming and really enjoyed this. You speak very well, but I mean, you, uh, a background so. You can articulate yourself really well, and I, yeah, that was really good. And, um, yeah, and,

you. hope I did well. I this is kind of impromptu in the sense that I it's first time I'm talking about this topic in a podcast

right.

so I hope that I'm able to, did, uh, do well by some aspects. It's, for me, now that I'm thinking about it, it could be redundant,

Oh, no, no, no.

feel free to

I think that the whole thing has been designed around the fact that I want all the methods that you used to get to the goal, to be out there so that people can pick and choose which methods work best for them. Because, like you were saying for the, the speaking exercises in class were not very beneficial for you. But for me, I think for me, I think they, they were, but yeah, it's just. Person to person. So it's, yeah. But yeah, I really appreciate you making the time for this and yeah, this took quite a lot longer than I, than I thought. And yeah,

Yeah, it's my pleasure ahead and yeah, let's get, let's keep in touch

for sure. And I'm, I'm definitely following your career because if you've been able to do this, what else can you do? So Yeah. And, um, yeah.

Likewise.

Thank you so much for coming.

Hey, all the best to your podcast. And I just wanted to say that I appreciate this kind of endeavor because it's very important for immigrants and it's it's amazing. It's very encouraging that there is this type of endeavor and project that you are doing

Thank you. Thank you.

So keep it up

Thank you very much. And, um, if you ever come across anyone who you think would be a good fit for me to interview as well, that would be. Very much appreciated because we are rare it seems.

Statistically, yes.

to be. But alright hey

Yeah.

a good evening and uh, yeah.

Likewise.

Bye Bye . Thank you for watching or listening to this episode of How I Learn. finnish with or tune in for the next one where we'll have a completely different. Very exciting guest with a total new background, different life story, circumstances, and obstacles, and most importantly, their own unique and creative way of how to achieve fluency in your target language. ​