014: How Friendships and First Steps Built Ahmed's Finnish Fluency

I think as boring as it is to say that you have to keep trying, it's, it's really needed is that you're doing this for yourself before you do it for others. And if you manage to pull through and do that for yourself. Then you would have made your life a lot easier. You don't wanna do that with language. You wanna learn things for the sake of actually having the knowledge and having the ability to use that skill at any other time and perhaps forever. Se se sekin on itselleni aika iso muutos viime viime ajoissa, että että tota ensimmäistä kertaa

welcome to another episode of How I Learned finnish with Ohe. , today I have another great guest with us and, . Speaks finnish, like impeccably. It was crazy when I was talking to him on the phone, I heard him speak. I was like, oh wow. And where were you hiding? But yeah, I'll, without further ado, I'll just go straight to him and let him introduce himself. And, we'll start with a quick, like a rapid fire questions. Right. So, , name,

so, hello, my name is Ahmed, uh, Ahmed Al Rufaye. If that,

sorry,

like it's my last name. It's Ahmed Al Rufaye. . I'll just go with Ahmed. .

And then age

29.

Profession software developer or IOT engineer?

Just a software.

I mean, I'm an IOT engineer, so.

Okay.

And a game developer.

Oh, okay. 'Cause when I asked you earlier, you're like, oh, I'm just a software developer.

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

And uh, nickname.

. That's a really tough one, but, uh, I guess my close friends call me Ahmud So.

Ahmud,

yeah. Okay. So I'll go with that.

Oh, is there, is there a story behind that?

Um, it's honestly just started with one of my friends just starting to call me that because in Arabic. The way we, so Arabic is my mother tongue and I'm from Iraq, so, um, like the, the way we have a nickname for Ahmed is either Hamudi or Hamada, or Hamad, something like that. It depends, but this is where this nickname comes from, is like, because we have Hamudi and that's what my mother always kind of calls me. But then in English, it doesn't really work, so we just. He just slapped that like Ahmed and then in the end and he just added ahmud instead. And that's how it kind of stuck to me. And I like it. It's it's kind of cute.

It is. It is. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. So how I found the guest, I think I, I met you through my roommate slash best friend. You guys studied together in Kuopio or

Yeah. In Kuopio. We used to go to the same university,

Right. Yeah.

And, we were not really classmates, but I think I was his tutor, if I'm not mistaken, 'cause I, I just don't remember which year Kofi was, but like, yeah. So

yeah. So you guys have now moved to Helsinki and I ran into you at, another one of the Kuopio squad's, um, housewarming party.

Correct?

Yeah. And then we just got to talking and then you just threw it in there. Oh yeah. I speak then I find out like he speaks Finnish well, like, well, well, and you said you moved here when you were like 19.

Yes. Correct.

So perfect profile for, to be interviewed for this. 'cause you know, as an adult you, have learned this, but, um, so briefly, how does Finland show up in your life story? What brought you here? How long have you been?

Right. So I've been here for around 10 years now. A little bit over, I think. And, um, it's, it's kind of like a slightly, like, slightly random how , we ended up in Finland. It's just that we were kind of looking for a place. So I'm originally from Iraq and we, the, the, you know, the basic story of like, there's war and everything, but I also did not grow up in Iraq. I, almost my entire life I spent abroad from my home country. So I've been a foreigner my entire life, basically we moved when I was a year and a half old from my home country. And at the, when I was like around 18, 19, we were in Jordan. And um, there I was just about to finnish high school and we were looking for like an opportunity to kind of, set and like find our new home and then settle there. 'cause Jordan wasn't it, we were not really having, the possibility of like, um, having like a permanent home in a way, like paper-wise, but like, you know, legally living there forever. It's kind of not possible for Iraqis and, not really ideal 'cause Iraq is not that far and the whole region is kind of shaky. So, based on that, we were, I say we is , my family. So I have my parents and my elder brother. My mom was mostly the one kind of looking and asking around, asking from friends and family, like, what is possible? And so we found out that, Finland has free education. It was for that time, I think up until a few years back, it was like, how to say like where you can find the best education in the world, like rated top, , for consecutive years. And also we found out that, as Iraqi citizens, we could move to Finland and apply for refugee, so just as refugees. And that's how I moved here. Basically. We made a journey, me and my mom at the time, we didn't really do like anything illegal. We had visas to Europe and so we, took flights to Europe and then we. Literally traveled to Finland all legally. And then when we arrived here, we just applied for refugees as for refuge.

Right. Okay.

And yeah, that's what brought us here. Safety and education. 'cause I had just finnish high school and I was looking for my next step, which is becoming an engineer, so.

Did you always know you wanted to be an engineer?

Yeah. Ever since I was a kid, I always wanted to be an IT engineer.

Yeah. Mine for me came way later. It's, it's, I just didn't know what to do. And then my dad, dad was like, oh yeah, I have some IT friends that basically like, yeah, and you are very perseverant. They said it's very useful. In hindsight, what he was talking about was like when you encounter a bug, like you need one Yeah. You'll need to perseverance then in hindsight, that's what

Yeah. But that's smart on his behalf though.

Yeah. 'cause because yeah, I had a thing where I, I had grades to kind of do whatever, but I didn't, I wasn't interested particularly in anything. And then it just had a little nudge in that direction and then I was like, okay, I'll give it a shot. . And then here I am. I'm also just a software engineer.

Yeah. But, but that's really cool though. People find , their passion at any point in life. . And they really wanna whim as well. So . It was a bit different for me 'cause I knew I kind of wanted to be one. 'cause I really liked technology. I really liked tech. I really liked everything about tiny tech and exploring and like really breaking things apart as a kid and fixing phones as a kid. Just changing screens or like changing the motherboard of my phone I remember I broke my phones headphone jack probably more than 10 times just by dropping the phone while the headphones are in. So it just like hits the, you know, when it hits the floor the jack just, yeah. So I just, I was like, I cannot afford any phone. I'm just gonna open this phone and try to fix it. I just, I just found out that it was like the little bits of the like, you know the connection points? Connectors. They were just the pins. They were just broken off 'cause they were the pressure on them. . And so I just sold her them and, . I was, yeah. I had like a good, good, uh, base. from my family's side that my father is really handy and my mom is also an IT engineer. So that, , that's like, okay, I can do this.

That's a crazy combo. That's a, that's a great combo actually. Yeah. Wow. . But then, so later on your, the rest of your family joined or

Correct. . Yes, as of right now and for the last I think five, six years, my entire family's living in Finland.

Gotcha. Okay.

Yeah.

So then you, that means you arrived, what, 2015 Fifteenish. What time of the year did you come?

Uh, came the end of August or like, it was really like the last day of August. So September so Autumn.

Yeah. And when you arrived, what like, prompted you to start learning the finnish language? Was there a turning point? What was the

Yeah, so obviously there was the need. I, I think we. Quickly caught up to the fact that not a lot of people really speak English very well. . So I was in, I arrived to the north of Finland.

Oh.

So, , we, we arrived first to Kajaani. . , as the, the, the place where I, I lived first for like three months roughly. And, , it really became prominent that like, or like, see I think my English at the time was probably slightly better than this. That like, I, I was like more fluent. I was quicker.

like better than what you currently speaking?

Well, yeah, I think so.

Wow.

I think it has a little bit deteriorated over time. 'cause I was just started using finnish only

my English was better deteriorated, but Okay.

I mean,

decline was there, but deteriorated.

I had to sprinkle just to brag about it. No, not really, but like, I noticed that when you go to a place, let's say, so of course as a refugee I have to deal a lot with like police station , and everything. So like when I go there and you ask like, do you speak English for the person that is providing you the service? And I'd be like, they, most of the time they would say yes, and therefore you would maybe unleash whatever you have in within you to talk about. And then it slowly starts to show up that like they have not necessarily understood every single thing or there is like miscommunication and misunderstanding in certain terms. And this is where I was like, okay, uh, I think I need to learn, finnish myself so that I'm able to communicate in the language that the others are comfortable with.

Yeah.

That's another thing that a lot of people feel that they're not comfortable with speaking English even though they speak better than us.

Right.

Like

very good point there. .

It, it, it's really. It's tough and you cannot really expect other people to be forced to speak a different language with you,

just for your sake.

Yeah. Because after all, at least on my part, that like I'm not here as a tourist. I'm here to be part of this country and to, for it to be my new home and, and I have to put the work for my sake and for everyone to be part of this community and part of this country. So, I don't expect anyone to speak English with me.

Yeah.

And it's always nice and especially in the start, like it was obviously necessary, but yeah, the biggest motivation is that like I need to put the hard work myself so that I can do everything independently and without the need of a translator, which is also another. Story that like they make mistakes, they're humans. And, um, there's another thing about the Arabic language is that we have so many dialects with from different countries, so every official inter interview is obviously conducted with the presence of a, of a translator. Or interpreter. See, my English is not great interpreter. . And they, they could be from any country just because they speak Arabic. But in Arabic we have more, many, many different dialects. And even from the same country, you could have multiple dialects. . And Arabic is not one of the languages that, it's like English. You have Australian or British English accents that are like slightly different. . It's really drastically different. Like we have the same word could mean completely different things from . If you bring someone from the North Africa to someone from the Arabic Gulf or Levant region, Levant,

where is that

like Lebanon, Jordan. ? Syria and Palestine. So, yeah, so if I remember correctly, I did have that kind of problem at the start that like the translator did not know my dialect. And it's a bigger thing that like, if you try to change your dialect, the translator can also say to them that like, he's not from Iraq because he speaks a different dialect. Because there was a lot of people like lying about being from Iraq or like, you know, having maybe fake papers and stuff. And so it's just, it, it could have been all stories we don't know, but all of the things that you have to go through and, you know, the pressure and, stress about not messing things up. Because you made a mistake, right? It was all of that. And then also, of course, I had to speak in Iraqi dialect, and then I had to hope that they can understand me. And I was always trying to be helpful, but at the same time, I couldn't understand what they were translating in Finnish. Like I could understand if they're saying in Arabic that, oh no, no, you misunderstood this. You could help the translator or like say that this is not how I meant it, but it's different when it's in a completely different language that you don't really know anything about. So that was another huge reason. And of course, again, going back to it, like being part of the community, you have to learn.

Okay. So walk me a bit through like, uh, your learning journey. Um, what worked, what didn't and Yeah. What things were you doing to learn or practical level?

Yeah. So at the really start, I was having those like, was it like two, twice a week? Like an hour or two lessons? . I think they were useless for me. . Just because like

twice a week? Yeah. Hour a week,

they were not doing much. Yeah. It might have been also the time where I was not, maybe not that greatly motivated. But again, I think it was just because they were not really, intense. They were like really basic of like, I think the first lesson, like, which I get why it's done, is that like it was just the alphabet. But it was mainly because there was some people that couldn't read and write before

Fair.

So they were illiterate. And that's understandable. But then again, I was like, okay, I can speak English just fine and I can read and why do I have to be in these lessons? But of course I still had to go through all of that. . But yeah, I was a, a refugee in the beginning and up until you get official papers in Finland, you really don't really have the possibility to learn, finnish properly. . 'cause you, you only have the organizations that are doing it for, um, as, as volunteers or for charity. . That are like, are teaching you, including the church for example.

And they only do it for people who have become refugee who have received the status of being a refugee

No, the one, the ones I mentioned, they do it for anyone.

Okay.

They don't care.

Okay.

What is your,

the status?

Like status . Of you in, in Finland, but, once you become an official, um, resident, then uh, you can apply to those like official courses and schools actually like teaching you with like proper language teachers and and uh, full-time or part, part-time, depending on the course that you enroll into. And that's when I started actually like learning anything. So I got thrown into, I say thrown. I got, well of course, like I. I applied to these courses and I got accepted into one. But, that one that I got accepted into was like starting in six or seven months from the day that I got the letter, because it was like, right, I think it was March, . Or February, around that time. I think it was March. March or April, something like that. Like, it was like that time of the year. And my course was starting in like October for some reason. And, uh, I contacted them saying that like, what am I gonna do? Like, it's really long time, I don't want to be just sitting home. . I was already volunteering for the finnish Red Cross at the time, but it's still, it was just a day or two a week. . I'm 19. You know, I was also living in a really small city called Raahe, where it's like 20,000 people live, maybe 25. . So, , they replied saying that, okay, can you, you can come next week, next Monday, let's. We are gonna, we are gonna see your level at finnish and then if you, maybe you can start like next week. So what they had failed to mention is that I would be joining a course that has already been going for three months. So I just walked in there to the school and the teacher at the time, it was actually, it was a nice coincidence because it was like two of us, there was another lady at the time also coming,

also coming for the first time.

Coming for the first time. And so we both walked in and we're like, we're so confused what is going on? And the, the class was going and they were just like, okay, you guys can go sit in this corner and we'll give you, they gave us like exam papers and we were like, we're walking into an exam. But the exam was just to test if we are able to read and write. Also, it was only in finnish, but it was kind of basic. It had what the people in the classroom had learned in the last three months. So based on that, they were like, okay, you both speak enough. finnish you'll manage. And to be completely honest, for the first three weeks at least, I did not understand anything. 'cause they were just talking and I was like, everything is new to me. I really had the basics of like, knowing the days of the week, the numbers to 10 and that's it. Maybe like a few other words, really, really random words like duolingo almost. . Dwelling goal wasn't a thing at the time. So yeah, basically every day I had classes five days a week, six hours a day. And where the teacher was just only speaking in finnish explaining some grammar rules. Then we would be, like, you know, uh, solving some questions or practicing on ourselves on our paper. And then also chit-chatting and talking to our classmates in finnish only. And of course also the teacher only in Finnish. Sometimes I did ask questions in English they can understand, but they always answered me in finnish, which was pretty good. That is, I think the right way is that if you know what you're asking and then you get the right answer and finnish, then you also understand and they'll also tell you what the question is. . To help you. So I think around a, a month when that passed, I started only speaking Finnish to like in the class. Few words. Of course, I couldn't really have a fluent conversation, but I also start picking up the accent or like the, how do you call it? Like where my vocals and like I start pronunciation basically pronouncing correctly and like trying to. Kind of from the beginning, not to learn wrong.

Wrong, right. 'cause you had really good pronunciation. That's another thing.

Thank you very much.

Which is very surprising for somebody who learned as an adult. I had the luxury of, 'cause I initially moved here when I was 11 and I did finnish like as a, you know how you have it in class? Like as one of like math, English, like, like that.

Yeah.

But I was in an English school just as, yeah, I was in English school the entire time. So I never found a need to learn it until I grew up. But then pronunciation wise, 'cause I mean I have to be in the class anyways, so it, it was easy to get that pronunciation down 'cause I had that luxury of being young, yeah. But then. You were able to pull it off, like how as an adult that, that's quite impressive. So Yeah.

Yeah. It's really something that I think I'm kind of privileged of having, like a talent for languages or like kind of repeating sounds or mimicking sounds in a way. Um, it might have to do a little bit with Arabic being a language that has a lot of sounds in it, but, it's something I really like try to just not sound any different. Like, yeah, it, it, it's something I picked up quite quickly that if you don't see me in person on the phone, I could really be a Finn. So it's maybe something I should be proud of.

It actually happened to me once when I was applying for an apartment. . And then the landlord and I had a phone call and then later on we had a video call. I was like, wait, hold on. That's like, like, whatchu mean? . But then he was context aware enough to, was like, what I meant was, was like, yeah, your finnish is so good. That's what I meant. Like I wasn't Yeah,

of course.

It was hilarious. .

Yeah.

But yeah. Um, sorry, I interrupted.

So, yeah, like I was, I think saying that throughout that course, which was, I think that the, the official course is 15 months. I was only there for a year. So I was there for 12 months. That's where I had the most intense time of learning finnish. So it was daily and . Um. Well, of course only weekdays. . Yeah. And um,

how many hours roughly in a day?

Six.

Oh,

only six.

Oh. Like a, like a hardcore,

but yeah, it was, it was like, like quite intense.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's,

and it was only Six weeks because our teachers were coming from the city of Oulu, which was an hour drive for them. So they had to drive in the morning, one hour and go back for an hour.

For an hour. Yeah.

That is their eight hour day of work.

Gotcha.

But we were only there for six.

For six. Okay. Gotcha.

And they would give us homework for those two hours that are left over. . Okay. Of course, we don't get it easy, do we? , yeah. But, they're like, it is one of those like, I'm not sure I, well, I'm forgetting the English term, like

integration

Yeah, integration courses that, that they have for like, that you would feel home in Finland. So, so yeah. That was that. And during that time. I think it really did not take me that long to get my first certificate, which was the Yki testi. So B two level, I got after six months, so in January, so I started in, I think May . Or June

of which year?

2016. And in January, 2017, I had my, my like Yki test certificate already.

Yeah. That's, and this was the period in which you did this intense course?

Yes. . So six months after the starting beginning of that course, my teachers thought that I was ready for it and I said I'm not, but they pushed me to do it. . Which I am glad they did. But at the same time, I also did not really prepare for the exam. I said to my teacher, because at the time, like I knew that my course was still going until July.

Yeah.

And I told my teacher that like, if I've learned enough in six months, then. I can only think that I've learned I would be learning better or I would have learned better. . So I, I knew that my course was still going up until July and this was. Around the end of the year, I think it was like October or November, and my teacher was already like, sure that I have enough skills or like knowledge to pass this Yki testi

already in like the October.

Yeah. And well it was because that was the time they had to kind of register us for the exam. And they said that from the whole class there's like, I think three or four spots that they can give. . Or they thought that we are the people that should go. . And the basic rule about it is that the school pays for it. . And they only pay for it once per each student. So I didn't wanna mess that opportunity by them kind of screwing me over, let's say, yeah. To put me in the exam six months earlier than the ending of the course, which is again, the ending of the course has the, the goal of everyone being at B one level.

Right.

So they were ready. They were sure that I was already at B one and I said that I don't think so, but if you think otherwise, then you could put me there. , But if I fail, can I have another chance? And they said, yes, we would give you another chance if you fail. But the

negotiation

teacher was so sure that the teacher, , he straight up told me that like, but he'll pass. I'm sure. I'm sure of it's, and I was like, okay, if you think so and so comes the day of the exam. And quite interestingly, I saw my teacher in the morning of that exam day. He was actually one of the people that is like, uh, as a

invigilating The exam?

Yes, yes.

Okay.

So, so I had a small talk in the morning and he was talking to my classmate and he asked them if they. Study. And, they said like, yeah, we spent the last, 'cause they also gave us like a week or 10 days before the exam to prepare. . And uh, they said they spent like the last 10 weeks really studying hard and writing and they have notes with them and everything. And then like he turns to me and he was like, what about you Ahmed? And I was like, was I supposed to study? And he really like, looked in shock and he chuckled though. He was just like, I mean, I'm sure you'll be fine. So, but this is the thing, it's a language exam. You're not supposed to really study hard. And really, I think this is the problem with like all of exams. . All of us do it. We study really hard for the exam, but then when we really leave the exam, we just forget everything.

Yeah.

You don't wanna do that with language. You wanna learn things for the sake of actually having the knowledge and having the ability to use that skill at any other time and perhaps forever.

That's, that's, that's bars right there. That's bars right there.

Yeah. So, and that's also the reason why the, the language certificate is actually for a lifetime. You don't have a language certificate like Ielts or any, what are the other ones? Five or three years. And I'm like, I still speak this language like nothing changed. Yeah. It might be rusty, but

I have a personal beef with that, with that, with those Ielts and Toefl. Yeah. I think one is British, one is American.

I think so

this might come across as arrogant, but I'm telling you people from developing countries that went to school, um, English speaking, developing countries that went to school. We speak better English than you British. You Americans, the nerve of you to test me every two years with I-E-L-T-S or Toefl. If I go to the US and I say, uh, or there, there's a, someone was saying that if you go to the US and he says compulsory, they would not understand what you mean. Yeah. They would understand obligatory.

Yeah.

Compulsory is a beyond them. And you have the nerve to tell. Yeah. You know what, lemme lemme, lemme Pipe down. Pipe down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's keep it friendly. Yeah. But, but like that, that's, that's true. And, and I, I get the frustration behind it, but I'm glad that it's not the thing in Finland. . Like imagine we would have to go through tests every three, four years just for the sake of it. And it would be a money grab to be honest. 'cause that's another thing. They're expensive, those exams.

And I think that's what the Toefl and Ielts that's money grab, that's the whole thing. But the thing you're saying about how, um. . You with language exams, like you are learning the language for the practicality of the language, not like, it's not, it's not like biology where you just need to pass the exam and then you move on.

Correct.

You are learning the language so you can use it tomorrow or like an hour after. It's, it's, that's, that's the thing that I tell, I've been like telling people that with courses, people go think like, oh, oh, I, I talk to people about, and they're like, oh yeah, I'm starting a course, or I'm, I'm in a course, and then, but then the way they're talking about it sounds like the course will get me there. No, you will get you there. It's the course. is just

your work. Yeah.

Yeah. It's not like biology class where, or geography where you just need to show up, do your assignments, pass the exam, and you're done. You. You need, you need to have the tangible skill.

You need the work. Yeah, ,

So yeah, this is a very, like a very important point that you just just raised. And yeah,

I think it is very important in everything, like in including practical studies that we have, like what got us to where we are right now in our professions is that when we learned about something . For example, for us, I think I would assume programming is one of the biggest ones. Or problem solving is, is how I'd like to call programming is just we, we solve problems

pretty much.

Yeah. Is that whatever we learned stuck to us, like it was practical. I think actually like doing the homework is I what got me to learn programming properly. Because otherwise you're like, okay, everyone knows the basics. Logic is kind of easy in a way. It's not hard to understand logic, but then to put it together and solve the problem that you have in a very specific way is how the. What is the goal behind it? And it's the same with languages. It's, it's if, if you put yourself in any situation, how are you gonna get out of there? . With the skills that you have. So you need to have the ba the good, like good basic . Or good base for you to pass that. So

Yeah. Solid points. So already from the courses, 'cause that course was, that was eight months already that you kind of got to the B um,

B one. B two,

yeah. B one, B two. But let's kind of quickly recap on like before, how did you get like vocabulary, like enough of a body of vocabulary to even do these things at the beginning?

Mm-hmm. So I think I was learning a lot, a lot in, in school just by teacher teaching us. We were also playing at some point, like those card games, Alias, I think, you know, , even in the class that it was like one of the activities that, that we would have to go, or like had to that like the teacher would give us the cards and we would play Elias properly.

In finnish.

In finnish or without the timer. . Because we would, we need the time. And so I think that's one way. Another big part of it is actually the, you know, uh, wait, I'm sorry, but like, and when you study language and you a language and you are part of this, those integration plan courses, they also include, like practical internships that you have to partake into and though the goal of those internships is just to, for you to speak, finnish. So they could be pretty much done anywhere. . Where there is where you would need finnish. I think a lot of people, uh, do them in shops and because you could be working anything. . I was in a really small city and it was really not that easy to find a place that will take you, even though it's nonpaid . Like you really, they, they, all they have to do is just sign the paper, say they accept for you to show up in this place, and you literally also have insurance.

Do free labor. Yeah.

And you are free. . You don't cost them anything, but like still out of businesses wouldn't want that. And, um, yeah. So at the time, I also had few friends that I, that I've gained from just going around the city. It's a small place again. And also, partaking into activities that were like organized by the city or for example, the Finnish Red Cross or any other organization that were doing activities. They're also a big reason why I can actually speak Finnish is that they were speaking to me in Finnish, not because they didn't know English. No, because I asked them to, , they, they were really helpful and to, so when I speak, they could correct me. And that's something I think is very, very helpful and very useful for anyone learning and it should not be taken as a, like, well it is a hurdle, but like, it, it should not be taken in a bad way that like, oh, you're correcting me. I'm so bad. No, it doesn't matter. You are learning. And, when they correct you, you should only focus on the positive side that like, what is the correct way of saying it? . A lot of the time, that also opens up the question on like, why this is like that. And also a lot of the time people don't even know why.

Natives do not know why. Yeah. Usually

we learn about that in school, and this is when you start connecting the dots is that, for example, whenever you have a negative, you have to put partitiivi after. ? So

I don't remember any of those anymore, but yeah. Yeah.

Well

it's, it's naturally now it just comes up.

So it's like if you make the mistake of saying something and then your friend corrects you and you're like, oh, right, because that was a negative, so it has to go part of the TV and stuff like that. So like it just start, kind of starts clicking together once you are being told what is correct. Because if you just talk to yourself, you're always gonna be Right. You're not gonna find the mistakes easily. And so, yeah, with friends talking, that helped a lot. And I did my internships and, and I was like a. Classroom teacher assistant. in, uh, primary school, Oh, I was bullied.

Oh, you were? Yeah. I couldn't do that,

but they also really liked me, so, so it wasn't that, uh, bad.

, I remember I did, what did I do? , Yes, työ elämän tutustuminen. So it's like work life orientation. . In junior high and then,

oh man,

this, no, I was in junior high at that time and then, it was two weeks. I remember I did my first week in Nokia and I didn't really enjoy it. Didn't really enjoy it so much, so I switched to to working at school for the last week and the kids were, it was a finnish school. That was, that was tough. That was real tough. And I remember, I remember one time I was helping this little girl with her math. It was first in second grade. I was helping this little girl with her math and she made a, I dunno if I should say this. She made a comment that like. She didn't want my Yeah. Yeah, she didn't want my, But yeah, basically she didn't want my color to get stuck in her book. Yeah. But anywho,

yeah, so like, I was, so, I was working in that school for, it was, initially it was only like six weeks. I think the first one is either six or eight weeks. I don't remember. It was one or the other. And, uh, I really had basic tasks of just really going. I think it, it was really great that, that one of, the teachers pretty much made a, made a calendar for me. So like, like a whole schedule of like. On, on which day and what time and which classroom. I will be just like the kids And so, uh, I was partaking into every single class. . So throughout the day I would show up at eight in the morning, leave whenever three, 4:00 PM whenever the kids are leaving. And, I would be in there, like the easiest one for me was the English class. 'cause I had to speak English with the kids, which was great for them because they also had the opportunity to really talk to someone only in English for them. They, they couldn't speak English,. Of course they got to know that I was okay in finnish. It was just, . Really broken. And I really liked taking like, for example, chemistry and physics classes and stuff and, In finnish. 'cause I, that's something I never had. . And it's really something. I, I love chemistry, for example. I guess I'm in the wrong field. I really love chemistry. . So like, learning about chemistry in finnish was really fun. And I had to also explain things to kids in finnish, because once they start doing their homework and stuff, I was there to help them. And so, um, it's like the teacher cannot keep up with like 30, 20 kids in the classroom. So they would ask for help. And if I cannot help, then I would ask, I would personally ask for help if I cannot explain something. So that was mainly my job. And so that got me to really be spending a lot, a lot of time around people and only speaking Finnish. And, um, I mean, I did mention that it, it also at times it wasn't, it's not as pleasant, like working around teenagers. For me it was between the ages of, uh, was it like 13 and 16? , it is like the hardest like. It is the hardest age period. , For, for to be around, you know? . They could have their own, uh, quirks, I guess call it that, that way. But it was also still nice in a way. Like yeah, even though they could laugh at you, they could make fun of you. But that was part of it, that was part of the experience that was part of me to learn also how to do that myself. And, honestly, all of them, they were really amazing as well. So, so it was, it was nice for me to learn and they were also correcting me, which I found very nice. . I didn't mind. And, they were also very interesting and curious people. Like, they were interested where I was from. . They were interested about my story. They were interested. Why are you even learning Finnish? Like you can speak English just fine. And, and like, it's, it's things like that. And, and then of course. They're also at the age of, like, they don't know what they wanna be and what they wanna become when they grow up. And so they also saw me as an adult and you're like, oh, what is your profession? Or we would be talking about other topics like games and, what do I wanna study, for example? Which got me to also study game development at the time. . Just by being in that school. 'cause , I got to learn that some of the kids wanted to be study this like game development. . Which was in another school that I did not, I was not aware that it existed. So I was like, oh, you guys have that here, like in this city. . So through that I got to know, and I also got to meet with the teachers that kind of how I ended up actually studying game development at the time right after. So yeah, that was a big one. And again, friends talking, using the language and also. Or every volunteer work I had done, so finnish Red Cross, I was also, helping as a ensiapupäivystäjä, , which would translate in English to first aid. It's like, , Why do I forget the terms,

like first point of contact kind of thing.

It's like duty officer. . So we are just on duty there and on events we walk around with our first aid backpacks and we have like our tent. So if anyone needs basic first aid, so , just a scar or some wound or they need help or they fall and hurt themselves or something. We are there. We are also of course, trained to have basic or a bit more, , intensive, , like first, first aid, um, or like follow protocols, let's say, let's say that way. 'cause we were not. Really nurses or anything. But yeah, so through all of that, that was my way of learning finnish. So it's, it's a bit all over the place.

No, but I mean this is, yeah, this is quite a, like a large, uh, like undertaking. At which point did you feel like you reached like C level?

I wasn't aware of it.

You weren't aware that you had crossed that line? Okay. Okay.

Yeah. It was until I was in uni. I was taking, so, you know, at uni you have those optional courses and um, I think at the time I was like, oh, I wanna improve my finnish because actually I started studying in university in English. Okay. So I decided that if I'm studying it, I would actually choose to study it in English. 'cause, ' I, now I can speak Finnish. I should study it in English so that, because the field, the whole field is working in English, ? Pretty much globally. If I decided to, let's say, move anywhere else that my, then my degree is in English, and then if I stay in Finland, I still speak Finnish. I'm still a finn, , so I was studying in English and decided like, okay, you know what? I should also improve my finnish because I'm not speaking Finnish anymore. At the time, I think it was like , only few months, but it was already like hitting me that like, oh, I'm gonna forget finnish and everything. And so I took a finnish course that I thought would be a good level to kick off from, which was a B two . And I was like, oh, this is easy. And I spoke to the teacher and the teacher was also saying that like, yeah, I think you should go at least like one notch higher. So I thought it was like a C one course, and I was like. And I did the C one course. I think I, this is, I'm sorry. This is the easiest credits I've ever gotten. I think I got it. I think I got the course in like three or five hours, which I got five credits from

Oof.

Because I thought it was super easy. . So then I I did another course that was C two and, I was like, I think, yeah, I, I am learning something here. Of course, also in the C one, I was learning like grammar rules that I didn't know about. I kind of knew them. . I was like, speak wise, I was using them.

Yeah.

But they were not really something that we were taught.

Right.

So, yeah, I officially do not know my level in finnish, but it has to be between C one and C two at this. Agent time.

Yeah. , I abandoned grammar rules at some point, and I just spoke and then . Just, yeah. But I, , I feel it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a bit different for me than I that I'm working in finnish, because I also have to write documentation in finnish. . But then. Yeah, I think again, my, my official, our like company's official language, also English, so now I'm also translating whatever I wrote in finnish a month ago to English.

. Okay. Okay. Yeah. With the resources that you, different resources that you used, were there any that surprised you with how useful or how useless that they were?

I think a lot of people really underestimate the fact that practice makes perfect is if you don't try, if you don't put yourself on the spot, like outside of your home, once you leave and you wanna, , whatever you're doing, I don't know, but let's say you go to the gym and you, you see your gym body and you want to talk to them, try speaking to them in finnish it. It's really, it really puts a lot into your head because. I'm pretty sure for the first few times you do it, you're gonna be really thinking what you're gonna say everything, you're gonna be stressed about it, but slowly it makes it, it becomes more natural. It becomes that whenever you're put on the spot and you get asked a question, you can immediately like answer. And it is just simply put that the more you do it, the easier it becomes. . And no matter what mistakes you make it, it doesn't really matter. . As long as you, as the other person understands you, you're doing great. .

toista ja toista ja toistaa

Yes. Correct.

That's, that's reps, reps, reps. That's pretty much, yeah. 'cause it's so easy to fix once you already like are, become comfortable just saying stuff. It's so easy to fix. Oh, so is comes in like John is here. Oh, is comes before In between John is, John and here. It doesn't come after. Well, that's an easy to fix if you're already saying, John here is John here is . You just, oh, okay. Or just slight modifications are so much easier to do when you are already like, comfortably making whatever mistakes . You know, so, .

Yeah,

yeah. Is there anything that else that you found like, this is useless or this is useful?

Mm, well, I am really not sure. I, again, I mentioned earlier that I was not from that period of time that duolingo was a thing, but I don't dare say it's useless, but a lot of it is like, what you learn in there is like not something really practical.

I I, I dare say it's useless.

Yeah. I think, I mean, again, you learn like really niche things . About situations. And I think I've heard a lot of people mention about like the, the bird. Like, I, I really didn't know the name. We call them love birds. I think they're called parakeet. Parakeet in English.

English, okay.

Uh, I didn't like, in like seven or eight years living in Finland, I did not learn what is specific bird species is. . And you would not need to say that. But then duolingo thinks that like, it's, it's really,

it's very important.

It's really important for them. It's like tämä undulaati on vihreä, and you'd be like, cool, like you, it's, it's, it's a bit, I think if you learn the vocabulary from it, if you learn the words and you kind of start having the gist of how to connect the words and form a sentence, then you would learn.

Right

But at least I think a lot of people give up before that happens

I think what happens with the language that people have a false sense of achievement. From having used it, so it's like you can make it useful, but if, or you're like, oh yeah, i have a a hundred day streak and you think you've done something, no, you haven't it in a hundred days. The level, if you've practiced for a hundred days language, the level you should get to is not the same as a hundred day streak in Duolingo . . Because on lingo you're there like 5, 10, 15 minutes a day. That's not enough. That's, that would be enough if you were doing the whole biology thing where you just need to pass the exam and then you're done. But this is a language you need to learn it beyond. You need to learn it so much so that it ref it comes as a reflex out of you. So it's not enough , for that purpose.

Yeah. And I, I mean a lot of people just keep a streak. I think I'm one of them right now, but yeah, like a lot of people really just keep a streak and so that it really doesn't translate into how much work they have put into learning the language. 'cause . They could just be having one lesson a day and it kind of isn't doing anything.

Right. Right. Yeah. Um, what observations have you made about other people learning?

I think a lot of people put the barrier on themselves that they're not able to learn this, they're not able to understand this, , that they cannot comprehend something in the language. I think just like the natives, I think it's fine sometimes that you don't understand why something is like that. . Like. If it's so hard to understand the grammar, I don't think it's necessary to really know why, but to know then when it happens and how to, how it happens, um, I could be completely wrong. I think having this, , what is it called? Like mental barrier . Between you and learning the language is a really tough thing to overcome. And if you just kind of believe in yourself and say that I'm able to do it, I'm gonna do this, and you just put the work and you really try to learn . And put the effort into it. I think that's the proper way of learning and not just overthinking about it.

Yeah. Right. Okay. And, are there any surprising or like unconventional things that you did that other people might don't necessarily think of?

I don't, I, I don't see myself as being that like, you know, very special at, or like that I have put a lot of effort into learning apart from just using finnish every time I could. . , And I think one very, I guess, important factor into this is that with being able to speak another language that you have in common with the person you're speaking to is that you should not give up or give in immediately and use English. . Even for a word. . At a sentence. Um, it's not, it's just something I really. Try to separate the languages when I speak. So I really try to go around on explaining the word in the same language that I'm speaking before I even try to say it in a different language. It's slightly maybe contradicts that what I did today, mentioning a couple of words in finnish. It's just for the sake of being quicker. . But, if you're speaking in Finnish and you want to, you, you are looking for a word, try to explain what it is and people might have a gist on what you're trying to say. . Before you just quickly say what it is in English. And if you do end up saying it in English, then remember what that word was. 'cause I think at least people, people have different ways of. Like, you know, connecting memories with places or smells or situation. It could be anything or a scent, I meant. So I think situation where you could be uncomfortable is a good one. You could be uncomfortable because you forgot this word in front of a crowd. . And in that moment, once you hear it, you're gonna maybe remember that forever. . So putting yourself on the spot is not a bad thing.

Yeah. Fair point. Um, so one kind of concept that I've kind of, uh, I've understood with achieving bigger goals, it's like you can set things up in your life so that it makes it easy for you to work towards the goal instead of not work towards the goal. And, so. What are the passive things you did or like things that have already been set up or just happen to be in a certain way that helped you? I'm talking about things that you wouldn't have to set them up, but they just happened to be . Like that already

for me to, to reach that level. . I mean, I don't know if this counts, but studying like study, so my goal was to be an IT engineer. . And initially I was applying for universities in finnish. . And I had actually passed the finnish exam at the time. After I was done with the language course, . It was summer and I, well, I applied already, I think in the application period was beginning of March. . And mid-March, beginning of April is when they have all of those. , Application period, like processes of, , entrance exams and before entrance exam, if you don't have a language certificate, you have to go through the,, like an a language exam as well. I'm not sure if, if it even helps that you have an Yki test exam because at the time I think I had it, but I was still subject to, um, undertaking that finnish test, which wasn't that hard in my opinion. But, um, it was also to check that if you were at least B one or B two level.

Right. So they have their own finnish test that you have to do.

Yeah. If you are not a native finnish speaker. . At least at the time they did. I'm not sure what's the process today. So I had done that also, and, but yeah, again, going back to the question is that my goal was getting into university and, uh. That was quite a high goal already, and I needed to be better. Like I was, I needed to really be able to write, read, and understand, finnish properly. . There was also an interview part, which the interview part was mostly to, that's like a normal procedure that they take to see if you're, how well you're motivated. And, it's just a basic part of the entrance exams . In the university. So, um, that of course, work life brings itself in. I've mentioned before, I really wanted to be part of society. I really wanted to be one of this society and community and to not be looked at as a foreigner.

Yeah.

In, in the sense. So I could belong somewhere. . And I'm kind of happy to say that I felt that quite quickly, I think after learning finnish that I had become part of, of this. . And, uh, through that it was also easier, much, much easier to integrate myself in there. . To not feel, like left out. And for example, like in every workplace you have, you, you could have your work language as English, but then once people are on their breaks, nothing is forcing them to speak English. . Unless, of course being polite is different. But if they're just relaxing or they're two people sitting on a table, or let's say four or five . They will probably be speaking Finnish between themselves and. If you speak the language, then it's a lot easier to kind of join in. . Becoming part of that.

Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah, ,

I cannot really think much of what were, like, what was set that was not really planned. But , I think none of these were like officially planned by me. It was just that

that's how things are

my goal. And then these are like things that show up in the process of like reaching that goal, so, .

Yeah. Okay.

And I did end up studying this like, uh, game development, which was media production and for like two years in finnish. Okay. So ammattikoulu, like the vocational school was completely in finnish. .

Yeah. On that question. One interesting one I heard was this guy, he had a paternity leave, so he would, and that's not something he liked. The, institution of paternity leave exists. . So he just kinda used that, like, he would take his daughter to the restaurant in the Yeah. Pram. . And then he would buy somebody lunch, and then the person has to talk to him in finnish for an hour. Oh. It's like, that's pretty interesting way. Yeah. Yeah.

That's very cool.

Yeah. Yeah. But, um, do you have a hot take? What is your hot take on the subject?

Well, I think a good hot take is, I don't think finnish is that hard.

Oh, okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yes, that is good. finnish is not that hard. That is true.

I mean. What could be more reasonable to say is that nothing is impossible. . If you really put the hard work into learning the language, you will be able to speak it. . So, yeah. Do not have that. This is impossible. I'm not gonna be able to do it. . So my hot take it's easy.

active things that you did, so did you have a study routine, speaking habits, et cetera? And I know this is kind of, , we, we've already kind of mentioned some of these already.

Yeah. Correct.

But I like to kind of look at the same thing from different angles so that people can Yeah. Grasp it a bit better.

So I think again, actively just speaking, finnish whenever possible was the biggest one. Um, work life, I think the best time I really learned how to speak because I think it's like you learn language in a course you learn the. Like the official language. . Like, I don't know, what's the English term?

Like the formal language.

The formal language, correct. So you go, you leave that classroom and you are left, especially here in the capital region, is that don't hear any proper finnish. anywhere or like formal finnish anywhere. So then especially when I got to, you know, work around younger, younger people . In their teenage years. So I think actually one of the first comments I've heard, or like I, it's like kind of engraved into my brain, is that like one of the kids just simply saying like, why are you speaking like that? Like, why do you speak like a book?

No, I could not, I could not do that. I would just enter a hole in the ground, man.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I think I, at the time I was probably very embarrassed. That's why like, I just, I think I tried to explain to them, it's like, yeah, I don't know how to speak like you, so maybe someday you can teach me how to speak like you, you know?

That's a good answer. That's a good answer.

What do you say? There are kids, like,

I dunno. I dunno why I speak like this.

So yeah, that was like, again, putting yourself on the spot is, is a tough one to do, but you also learn to realize that it doesn't matter. . It's chill. , And yeah, just using it everywhere possible. And if you have the possibility to use it at work or, uh, it's your hobbies. We've mentioned that I play volleyball and. Most of the time, I mean right. Nowadays it's only finnish. I don't really have anyone that, that we have in volleyball that is not a finn. . Or if they're not, then I don't really know that because they're speaking finnish. . Just as good. So yeah, it really opens up a lot and it also gives you the, the chance to improve yourself with what you can say and what you can be involved in. So, um, I guess for a, for some people it could also be really needed that they study at home where they could be learning more day by day. And especially with vocabulary. I actually, this is something I, I used to do, but I kind of stopped doing. I don't know why, but I think it's really good , if, if, if done. Is you could have a dictionary. . Any language to finnish whatever language that you want. And, you can just, every day, if you learn, let's say minimum one word a day, within a year, you have learned another 365 words. .

That's true.

And, um, a really easy way to do it is that you just open it on a random page every day and you read whatever word comes to, like you see first. '. And then you really understand what it is and how to use it. That really takes sometimes like, oh, I know this word. And you can think of some stuff sometimes you'd be like, oh, this is really interesting. How about like, you actually dig into learning how to use that word and how to put it in a sentence or where it's used, or sometimes you get interested and you start learning like five, 10 words that day. So that's, I think, one slightly unconventional old school way of like, learning is just only vocabulary, of course, is to open a dictionary and like relook at a word.

So, um, what conscious changes did you make in your life that like, made it easier to practice than to not practice? So for example,

actively done myself.

Yeah. So if you want to go to the gym every morning, maybe in the evenings you put your gym clothes out next to your bed. . Those kind of things.

I see.

Yeah. Like what conscious decisions you've made, like on purpose. Like, just so that it's easier for you to actually work towards the goal than to not work towards the goal.

Hmm. I'm not sure how to answer. . Because I, I, it's always have been like in my head mostly.

But I think, see we are kind of alike in the sense of like, I think you just see things as Okay, problem, solution. Problem, solution.

Very logical.

Yeah. So like. I, I, I, when you say it like that, I completely get it. And if for you, 'cause you, , there's a thing, I was talking to this one professor, this one Professor , and he was talking about how when you make something part of your identity, it becomes so much easier to do. And, um, how, when I decided like, okay, I'm gonna be living here at least my twenties, these are my good years. I hope all my years are good, but at least my good years. So if I'm gonna be here, I have to enjoy it. And I think you made a decision like, okay, I'm here. I'm going to be here for a long time. So it became part of you. It's just like,

yeah, definitely.

So I think it made it so that the ball was already rolling down the hill for you. . In that regard.

Yeah. The snowball was really like,

So, yeah, it makes it a bit easier to. Yeah. 'cause I think that that thing works for if you're feeling some friction in, in pursuing the goal. So I guess maybe for you that question is not very relevant then.

Yeah, sorry.

No, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. This other, yeah, so, so I've realized that integration is a huge factor, like . And, , because an example that I heard from an Australian, a finnish friend who lived in Australia is a, people would come there and German students exchange students would come there and he had this apartment that he would rent out. And when they would come see his apartment, there was an another similar apartment, but that was by a German student. And they would often choose that German student. . Because he spoke German. And then when by the time they were leaving the country from the exchange, their English didn't improve as much as those Germans who did come to stay with him.

Yeah. '

cause they were obliged to speak English. . So like obviously then integration is like now, like there was a huge factor. And so how have you integrated yourself into Finland and do you have any groups in your life that you could force to speak, finnish with you?

Yeah, so, uh, I think it was from the beginning that, uh, I, I had my friends that, that were like Native Finnish people and they were, um, really a big factor into how I learned to speak better. . And, I think another really big factor is that if you are doing your hobbies. And you have that group of friends that does your hobbies. So I was lucky enough, or perhaps that's why we became friends, is that those people, we shared the same hobbies. We were going to play tennis, we were going to play badminton. And shortly after we started playing volleyball with the people that I considered already as my friends, and they were the reason, or like the people that I was mainly speaking Finnish to. I think I was more myself forced because they were, most of them actually, I don't think I had any. Friends at the time when I was in Raahe that were not Finnish people. . So, and I think some of them were also quite old of age that they were not speaking actually good English in some sense, but it was a really good opportunity for me to, . Just, well, two things. They're amazing people. I want to be part of their life. . I want to be there for them. I was helping them. They were helping me. And the other thing is like, I was also gaining knowledge by learning Finnish. . And actually in a way, integrating into society here, like learning how life is here, having a day routine that is very unconventional for, for. A person from my country having lunch at 11 in the morning , is not something really normal. . We have breakfast at 11. . We're like Spain, we eat at 4:00 PM and eat at 9:00 PM dinner. And so , it's a bit different. And so , I think more often that I was the one forced to speak Finnish in the situation for myself to be better understood or to really have that, confidence when I speak about something is that it's not being misunderstood. This is what I mean, this is what I'm trying to say. . And, I think like having that communication goal is to be able to communicate with different people from a different background. Completely. , different language is that you really. Want to be understood is how you mean it and not in a different way. And also a lot of the time, I think is another thing we earlier touched on about what should maybe shouldn't be done or like, like as advice of like what you should do and you should not is um, I think it's, it's never a good idea to completely translate a language to finnish in your head. Yeah.

I was very guilty of that

Not always finnish, but in any other language. .

Very guilty of that. I was, yeah.

if you're able to just switch in your head to that language and think in that language, that's another thing I think I I do a lot is that I completely think in finnish most of the time now that I'm working, uh, when I'm around people, when I'm alone, I'm, most of the time I'm thinking in English, but you could be reliving conversations that you went through. But you should still do them in finnish if they were in finnish. . And I think by the time your subconscious is always is able to have that conversation with yourself and finnish, then it's also a good practice. And having dreams in finnish language is the next step. They happen randomly. You cannot decide, I mean, hot take, but you can decide.

Okay. Okay. I don't know if that

lucid dreaming is a thing, but, But, but like, you could decide on, uh, sorry. Like you, you could have a dream in finnish, but, think that just translates into that your brain when you're sleeping is actively thinking in that language. So therefore it is more embedded in you than you think. . So, yeah.

When in your timeline, when did you move? Initially you were at Kajaani, right? Yeah. And then when did you go to Raahe?

So that was still 2015, end of the year, I think, December, 2015.

Okay, so you were and Kayani for like two, three months? Yes. And then to Raja. Okay. And then did you, and then you already started making friends before you joined, , the, what's it called? , The, the, the finnish course?

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Through, through the like different activities that, that I was partaking in.

Okay.

So they were mostly volunteers.

Okay. So it was through volunteering that you made you kind of like the initial contact with these people and then you started the hobbies with them?

Yes.

Got it. So from your experience when people don't succeed at learning finnish, what has usually been the reason?

I think it's just they, they haven't really tried enough. Maybe see the thing is like. I obviously believe that people are different and we need different methods to learn. We also need maybe different repetitions. Like how many times do you have to repeat something for you to remember it and to be understood by your brain, and that a big part of that, of that is the method and how you learned. I personally do not like holding a book and reading it and really writing things much. I'm a person, for example, that really pays attention in class. And when the teacher is explaining something, I learn it then. And then when I paste that problem again on a piece of paper, then I'm able to kind of remember, because I understood it when the teacher was saying it. I think it's just that it's a matter of freely figuring out what works for you and learning. And I, I think it's for everything in life that if you find your way on how you learn better, uh, I can think of, like, for example, my brother, his entire life, he really likes to write things down. And it's not something I really do. I, I think my notebooks were mostly empty. Most of the books that I had with Finnish, apart from Homework, you would not see marking on them. . I don't think I have the greatest memory. In fact, I think I have bad memory. but when I pay attention, I have decent memory for things and I kind of connect them together. So I think the biggest reason why people might not learn. Good is that they haven't really figured out their proper way of learning this thing. I've also mentioned, for example, that I learned also in class, we were playing with board games, so Alias and other board games that were in finnish. So That's a good suggestion. I think people should try doing other things, like also emotions. Music. Music could be really, really great for learning. I, I remember also in class we had, , we had like homeworks to listen to a song and write down what we understood and what are the emotions we think the singer's going through and what they're talking about. . Um, another assignment I think I remember I got was that reading a book and writing a summary, like I had to read a whole book on Christmas break.

Right. Right. So, yeah.

So yeah, I think , obstacles of learning is that maybe time and effort were not enough put into it. And of course, I think the mental barrier of thinking that I'm not good enough or I'm not good at this, then is a big factor.

Right. . Right. Yeah. Okay. , so basically, yeah, just kind of believing and then putting in the, the reps. . And Okay. What did you do that others don't?

Hmm. I'm not sure. Maybe the fact that I said I don't study.

That you don't study?

I was just more into using it.

Right. Yeah. I think it sounds like you made it very much like just a part of your life. So the repetition just came just by you existing. Which is I think, like a really good way of going about it.

That's amazing way of saying it actually. Yeah, so, '

cause I, I interviewed someone similar name actually, Hamed, he also had to say name and uh, yeah. I think for me, when I was deliberately trying to learn it, I, yeah. 'cause because I had said, told everyone that I'm only gonna speak Finnish. I had no choice. So, so I had to speak Finnish. I would have little cheat days here and there, but, I remember for example, with my, with my, um, person I was dating then she. It annoyed her the whole, 'cause I was like, we're not speaking English. And it significantly reduced, I would say the quality of our interactions was so understandable on her part that she did not love the whole thing. But then I had to have like cheat days. So we're like, okay, Thursdays we speak English. It was, sometimes it was very, just very tiring. Yeah. So, yeah. But, , okay. If there are like six parts to learning a language, right? Let's just do a rapid fire where you say the things you did that helped you kind of master those parts of learning a language. And I want to kind of break each of them into two words. Like the things you did in the first, the beginning

mm-hmm.

And then also what you did later on. 'cause Yeah. At the start, getting, getting going. Is a little difficult than when you already have enough vocabulary and words and grammar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So for each of them, we'll do like what you did at the beginning and then what you did going on. Yeah. So for speaking,

do I have to say it in few words or, ,

you can, few ish words. Few ish words. So you could just list the things you did to improve on those things.

Mm.

So at the beginning and then later on.

So with speaking, I would say I, in the beginning I was definitely very carefully listening to people when they speak. 'cause I wanted to learn how myself, that I would be able to speak apart from the vocabulary, of course. . I think the vocabulary is the harder part. So that was the beginning. Nowadays I'm more focusing on the niche things when speaking on like certain situations and on like those grammar differences and when to use them. Like, it just catches me sometime that like, oh, that's one way to use this. So I think that's it. Did I answer roughly correct?

Yeah. So in the beginning, you didn't necessarily speak much, you were just more of listening and trying to figure out how to speak?

Yes. Because I didn't have the vocabulary or the knowledge to speak

. And then later on,

okay. So then later on, I also noticed that I started, when I speak, I would also sometimes correct myself, which I think is not a bad thing. . If you know which one is correct. . And on situations that I'm uncertain, I would say things and then I'm like, or is it this one? I'm not sure. . And then I also always mention to my friends that it's okay to correct me and therefore they were able to correct me and for me to advance in there from there. So I think. That was always really helpful as to, of course you start by structuring the sentence with mistakes, but then once a mistake is fixed, then you could notice the next one yourself. . That was something I was actively doing.

And then of course you also had, like you said you speak at work and then you spoke finnish with the friends that you made . Early on as well. And so hobbies and all that you were doing in a finnish. And then, you said you decided at some point that if there was an option between English and finnish, you would always go with finnish. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

As much as I can. And of course I think, of course in the beginning, so back in 2016 I was studying in this vocational school. . So there, everything was finnish and lot of the time I was also a bit lost 'cause I was still. Theoretically I was B one, B two. But also there's some situations and different subjects that you just feel lost. You don't know, you don't learn everything in school. You learn about basic general things and you have to delve in yourself into the others. So, so yeah, that, that was also a really big part, is that vocational school I had to study and also have classmates that are only finnish. Of course, we spoke English sometime, but most of the time it was finnish.

. And then number two is, listening comprehension. How did you kind of work on that?

Mm, I think this is the one that really has to do with your ability of understanding and learning yourself. 'cause, if you're a bit witty and quick with. Understanding things, then it's not that hard. Uh, I think a big part of it is being able to separate the words. It's very basic that when I'm speaking English right now and saying, speaking maybe quicker you're able to tell which word is where and where it stops. . If you don't, you'd be lost with the meaning. I think finnish language is one of, well, it's similar to this, that is, that you have the words meaning what they are. . That's, that's a dumb way of saying it, but it is true, is that if you cannot distinguish or know that when the word is ending . You would be a bit lost. So that was definitely in the start that I was like trying to know when the word ends and if it was one word or not. . Which is still a hard part. Till this day, honestly, I still. I'm unable to sometimes know if it, if I should write this as one word. As one word or not, or,

yeah. , Right. Okay. So you are listening to trying to decipher when words start, when words end

Yes.

And um, and

what they mean Of course. But that happens internally.

Yeah. And then of course, naturally with listening, as you are interacting with people, you are getting more practice of that. . And then the other things, Strengthening it. How did you practice grammar?

That was mainly done at school actually. So as I mentioned earlier, is that we were, the teacher was explaining something, especially in the morning. . Like the beginning of the day starts with the teacher explaining something in grammar or about grammar rules. And then we would go about that whole day. Repeating or like using what we have learned that day, uh, throughout different tasks and talking to others. Also those games, but yeah, mainly doing like homework and tasks about it,

okay. And then, with reading or reading comprehension, how did you work on that?

Mm, yeah, that's another part where I don't really excel at. So I'm, I'm not the person who reads books a lot. . So it was mainly done through those, , tasks that I had to do when I was learning the finnish language and also

back from school.

Yeah. From school and then also again in vocational school.

So, um, just. Kind of being forced to do it by having a homework. . Is the way I, I really went about it. I was not really reading for the joy of it.

Okay. So technically, so that also falls, falls under the set of things that you didn't choose. It just happens to be that way. . So, okay. . Yeah. And then also you said dictionary, so that of course definitely helps with reading comprehension 'cause new words.

Yeah. Of course, You, you learn a word or, or two, but I think the dictionary is a bit easier than actually reading a whole article. . 'cause

yeah fair point.

You, you only read

that one thing,

one line, two lines,

and it's in context as well. Yes,

but again, vocabulary I think is the biggest part of the dictionary. . If you, you have basic grammar and you have the vocabulary you are able to understand . When you read, so,

okay. And then what about writing? How did you practice writing, like at the start and then also towards then as you got better?

Yeah. So, is, is the reoccurring theme of like having the tasks and homeworks? . But um, mainly through doing them and also writing down thoughts, having personal notes. I'm not a person that really likes to write a lot of notes, but at the time I remember I was trying to write them in finnish. So, I would just grab my phone, open the note app and just start writing. And I don't really even want to see them now. I believe they were, they have a lot of mistakes. That would be funny. Like a yeah. 5-year-old writing, but I think they were needed for me at the time there. It was a good practice to have. Yeah. And yeah, it again, writing. I think is slightly easier than, than speaking. 'cause you have the time to think about it,

right?

You have more time to refine what you're about to put on the piece of paper instead , of just being on the spot, immediately talking.

Okay. Well then finally, how did you work on vocabulary at the start and then as you got better?

So at the start is it was everywhere around me. I was also by asking people, what is this? I was like a kid, like, you know, walking in and around. I was like, oh, what is that on the street? Like, what is a boat? .

And then like, see that's the thing. Like I now know it in finnish

soituvene

yeah, so it is like rowing boat, but what is. What are they called? Like the, or like the,

the oars

oars See

the stick thing.

I don't thing even know Stick thing. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's called oars.

I don't even know that in English. So like, you'd be, I would be just walking around was like, oh, what is that specific thing? What is this couch made of? And what is that? And it was a lot, a lot of asking around, I might've been annoying back in the day. Yeah, yeah, exactly what I meant. Yeah. So yeah, so simply like that, and of course I mentioned the dictionary trick of like just opening it once a day. . Uh, learn about it. And I just, language is one of those things that is like a never ending learning journey is that, I think it just happens nowadays when, I guess I'm also a bit lucky that now I have my partner who's finnish so that. I can ask her a lot. . And she, of course, she can help me through things. . But also we speak English between us most of the time.

Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering. Yeah. 'cause 'cause I, I, I ran into her in the store and I took your number on it. . That's how I texted you .

Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Tell me of , the times you found it most difficult to chase the goal.

I guess with, I mean for me personally is, is that , the, the timeframe that I was learning in finnish in was also. One of my toughest moments, I was, I had like quite severe depression at the time, so that was not helping. . At all. So it's like you get, I was at some point that I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel and you like try to add that to myself and or, or like try to, trying to convince myself that like. You gotta stay motivated, you gotta learn, this is your new future. But, uh, like also having a very, um, well, moving to a complete new country continent, language, everything. And having nothing to base. I didn't even know anyone from Finland at the time. . Was quite tough. But it was also an opportunity to kind of have a clean sheet and starting a new life however I wanted in a way it's like this is my chance to build that. So that was a big motivation

So then what words of encouragement can you give to anyone who has gotten fed up? I mean, having a difficult time,

it's. It's not easy, , like going through everything in life. And then on top of that, having to learn the language. And probably you might be at a young age trying to find who you are trying to be part of this society or trying to even figure out is this for you? It might not be for everyone. . But that should not be, um, like, it should not be taken as a discouraging thing for someone at a younger age specifically. So, I think as boring as it is to say that you have to keep trying, it's, it's really needed is that you're doing this for yourself before you do it for others. And if you manage to pull through and do that for yourself. Then you would have made your life a lot easier. You've made your ability and your possibility to find, for example, a job or to succeed in the business that you are about to start. Is very crucial. . And it opens up a whole new opportunity for you. . And that is, in my opinion, true about any language, not only Finnish. . So if you're a native speaker for some reason listening to this, then you could learn another language like Spanish or French or German, or any language that could be useful.

Yeah. Using the same principles pretty much. . Yeah. Okay. How has your life become better now that you live in a Finland where you speak the language?

I think, well, it has drastically improved in general about every single thing in my life

drastically improved A lot. Like night and day difference.

So like even, and then like adding even on top of that, that like you are able to do. I mean, just having the possibility with anything in Finland is great. Like you, there is possibility if there is will. . For you, like again with like hobbies and, and things. Let's not talk about the job market, but like anything else, it's quite possible and reachable. So, I also, for example, I think I have this thing where like, every time I move to a new place, I have a slow start 'cause I want to relax. I don't want all of my, I don't want my calendar to be full of things. And slowly over time that catches up to me that like, oh, I have so much time, I could do something else. When I moved from Raahe to Kuopio, I was working part-time. I had just graduated from school, so I was doing full-time study and I was on the weekends doing volunteer work with the finnish Red Cross. . Most weekends, especially warmer months of the year. So then. I really did not have much time to even see my friends and the time I had, I obviously went to see them and spent time with them, and then suddenly I moved to a complete new place where I have nothing. I only had school, I say only, which is eight to nine hours a day. That's, a, that's full time, yeah. For everyone. But then you're like, oh, I still have a lot of time in my day. But I enjoyed being alone, like to recharge, but then that slowly catches up. What do I do next? I want to do something more. And so, if I wasn't able to speak Finnish, and this is the direction I went to at the time, is that I was new to uni life, like university life, student life. And, a big thing that I found in Finland is that you're able to actually affect the quality of your life. By joining, let's say a board, a student board in the university. . And because the main goal of these student boards is to make student lives better, enjoyable, maybe cheaper and more fun. So with being able to speak Finnish, I was then able to join those boards and actually, like that opened up a whole new side of university that you don't like normal students who wouldn't have the bravery, let's say, of asking, what is this? . Because that all it takes. You just ask like, oh, what is this? Like you guys came and gave us a speech about. The student union, like, what do you guys do? And we're like, oh, we actually do all of these things and we have those activities and we have events, and we have stuff like that. And then you get to be part of organizing those events and being there for the students. So, uh, that really, like the language really helped into integrating like that. And I was also a tutor, so being a tutor is also a lot easier if you can speak. The language of the country that you're trying to tell about.

Yeah.

So you go somewhere showing people around you really have to speak the language. . I think it really made my life a lot easier, a lot more enjoyable. And it's, I think I've always had, the problem with communicating is I don't think I'm a great particularly into. Speaking one language. . Is 'cause I, again, I grew up not in my home country, so I feel like my Arabic is not perfect. My English is not perfect and my finnish is not perfect. So to have the choice of having two languages that are at least would help me a lot throughout my day living in Finland than only having one As being English. . Which is not the native language, the Finns speak, so,

Siis, siis, siis. No mikä on tapahtunut sun elämässä edellisessä niinku puol, puolessa vuodessa?

No siis puolessa vuodessa mä, tai niinku se puoli vuotta sitten mä valmistuin tosta ammattikorkeakoulusta. Eli silloin mä tein sitten sen päätöksen elämässäni, että mä nyt muutan tähän niinku Helsinkiin. Eli mä nykyään asun Helsingissä.

Ai sä muutit aika vasta?

Siis joo joo, mä elokuun tai no heinäkuun lopussa mä muutin tänne.

Aa okei.

Ei siitä ollut niin pitkä aikaa. . Ja tota niin silloin tein sen päätöksen, että nyt mä muutan Helsinkiin.

Stadiin.

Niin stadiin anteeksi. Pitää o-, pitää oppia vielä tätä slangia täällä. Ja ti-- ja niin että mitä muuta. Eli siis se on, se on jo itsessään aika iso muutos, että yhtäkkiä päätin vaan lähteä ja jättää viimeiset kuusi vuotta mitä oon tehnyt sitten Kuopiossa, jättää kaikki niinku taakse ja a-aloittaa taas no puhdaalta pöydältä. Ei ollut niin puhdas pöytä silleen, että mulla on ollut paljon ystäviä täällä ja myöskin mun tyttöystävä. Hänkin jo muutti jo Kuopiosta Helsinkiin stadiin.

Samaan aikaan vai?

Se oli pari kuukautta ennen mua.

Okei okei joo.

Niin, niin se toki siinä on vähän vaikutusta ja mun paras ystävä asunut jo täällä öö Helsingissä muutama, muutama vuotta, vähintään kolme vuotta ollut ennen mua. Se on yrittänyt mut saada tänne, niin se on siinä, siinä on niinku vaikutusta vähän, että miksi Helsinki. Ja toki Suomen isoin kaupunki, niin tänne muutettava ja lähempää lentokenttää. Se on itselleni niin tärkeää, että vihasin oikeasti niin paljon joka kerta kun pitää matkustaa ulkomaille, niin joutuu istumaan junalla.

Aa niinku pitkään ja sitten-

Joo pitkään.

Ja sitten sen jälkeen-

Kolme neljä tuntia. Että ja sitten jos on lento on aika aikaisin aamulla niin joutuu päivää ennen tu-tulla tänne ja paljon vaikuttaa siihen niinku matkustamiseen ja koko kokemukseen ylipäätään. Okei. Mutta niin semmoisia mitä on ollut viimeisissä kuudessa kuukaudessa .

Vai, vaihoitko sä jonkun työpaikan vai ootko sä samassa?

En kun mä oon, mä oon, mä oon samassa työpaikassa. . Ja itse asiassa mun, mun, mun tiimihän sijaitsee ylipäätään tai suurin osa mun tiimiläisistä niinku edelleen ovat Kuopiossa ja- . Osa on sitten Jyväskylässä, mutta sitten No mulla on se mahdollisuus, että mä saisin tehdä työtä etänä ja onhan meillä myös myöskin täällä Espoossa sitten toimistotilat, että mä oon siellä käynyt joskus ja silloin tällöin ja tota mitä muuta. Niin semmoisia. Ja lentopalloa täällä Helsingissä sitten päässyt vähän enemmän pelaamaan. Se se sekin on itselleni aika iso muutos viime viime ajoissa, että että tota ensimmäistä kertaa sitten pääsin sarjaan pelaamaan.

Sarjaan.

Kyllä. Paikallissarja. Ennen sitä mä en ole pelannut missään sarjassa.

Se oli vaan niinku kavereiden kanssa.

Joo se oli vaan enemmän kavereiden kanssa treeniä ja muuta.

Mut joo hei eli hän hän niinku niinku kuten näette, hän osaa kyllä joo kyllä hän osaa. Jotakin. All right. Yeah, that's, that's it for this episode, guys. I'm sure you enjoyed it just as much as I have and that you learned a lot. And, uh, yeah, I'll catch you in the next one. ​.