003: I Lost Custody of My Kids Because I Couldn't Speak Finnish - Anita Anttila

There was time in my life saying, I'll never speak this language, but here I am. I moved to Finland for the future of my two boys back then. I lost my custody to my two boys because I trusted, I trusted that

of all the episodes I'm gonna have, I don't think there's gonna be a bigger, compelling reason than this one that Yeah, I lost the custody of the kids because of the Yeah. That's massive.

Meet Anita Anttila. Who arrived in Finland nearly 30 years ago before Google translate duolingo or social media. As a young mother navigating a new country, new language, and unimaginable personal challenges, all while trying to hold her family together. In today's episode, Anita opens up about the hard earned lessons, small daily habits, and the emotional resilience it took to truly integrate into Finnish Society. Her story is raw, real. And inspiring and prove that fluency isn't just about learning a language, but it's also about connecting.

Alright. . So, welcome to this episode of How I Learned Finnish With, Ohe, today I am here with a special guest, my first interview that I'm gonna do and, yeah, I've known her since like forever. Yeah. Since I was a kid. I've known her since I was a kid. I didn't, back then I didn't realize the whole thing that I'm doing. But then now that I grew up and I was thinking like, who can I interview for this? And it's like, you came to mind immediately. And then I was like, Hey, lemme call my mom and ask who else? She knows that would fit. Yeah. 'cause you know my mom as well. Yes. Yeah. So, and without further ado, I'll let you. Can you tell us what is your name? Let's start with, yeah. What is your name?

Hi, I'm Anita Anttila. So Anttila came from the marriage. And I've been in Finland like for 29 , almost 30 years. Wow. But soon will be, and yeah, as a housewife once, but now working all of those years and having children and family

and maybe you mentioned a little bit already, but how does Finland show up in your life story? Like what brought you here? Oh, you already said how long you've been, but yeah. How does Finland show up in your life story?

Oh, yeah. Uh, I was married with a Finnish man in Indonesia, and we lived in Indonesia after our marriage until my children, back then my boys, until they are turned to five and seven, seven years old. And we moved to Finland in that age. And through marriage, of course, I came to Finland and I found it like challenging, but I. Decision was I who made. So I accept everything that comes along with that.

As in like, you made the decision, you

I made the decision consciously, right?

Yeah.

Without any force or any, uh, coerce or anything. Mm-hmm. Anything I moved to Finland for the future of my two boys back then.

And since then there's been at least Julia that I know.

Yeah. Julia came along after many years back. Right.

Okay. Yeah. Um, okay. So what prompted you or what caused you to learn the Finnish language? Like was there like a specific turning point or some specific need that pushed you to learn the Finnish?

Yeah. 1996 it was, I. Very, you can imagine Finland, like almost 30, 30 years ago, not so many immigrants yet everywhere. English was not familiar yet with people. And my extended family back then from my husband back then, they were all Finnish speaking, no one speaking English. Okay. In other words.

Okay.

And we moved to the very small town , near Seinäjoki, like 2,500 population. Yeah, I moved there. And, since then I tried very hard how to learn Finnish because the, in Finland, they have this integration program. So before I got into that program. I was learning with the dictionary, which is not very good. It's not helping, but you try your best, that's still not helping. And, uh, but after six months later, less than one year, I got into the integration for program for six months. And then also, included, Finn language learning about the, uh, social, uh, social right as a, as a resident or the same, right? Like, uh, people who are also, uh, citizens. Uh, they're taught in this integration. And there I learn. Uh, the first time, the first touch of the Finnish language by grammatical.

Wow. So 30 years ago, basically. 29. Oh, 29. Yeah. And back then they already had the integration programs with courses already.

Okay.

Already. Okay. Okay. So I feel like you have a very unique perspective on what's changed now, but I'll get into that a bit later. Okay. Uh, so, okay, so you move here, you move to Seinäjoki with your partner, your, with your husband back then. And yeah. You then you joined this integration program and also, like, nobody really spoke English back then. No. No. But before you, you joined the integration program after like six, after the first six months, six,

seven months or after, because it takes time.

Yeah. So how were, how were you like managing before,

Shopping in the supermarket, I only go to the price and then the, the look, oh, it's, this is chicken. Because we, no one can say chicken is always like a Finnish language. "Broileri", right? Uh, or pork. Pork is like "sika, sianliha, porsaanliha" right? Something like that. So vegetables, I, I don't have to read anything only by the physical looks. Fine. So, yeah, I mean, uh, shopping or something like that. But the only, uh, thought that I didn't do, it was year before that integration. Cannot communicate with people. Yeah. You feel like you see people. Yeah. But like you see nothing and you hear nothing because you don't communicate. Yeah. You only see some movement

that must have been rough,

uh, in a way. In a way. But I was, I think because I was too busy to think what, how should I manage? So I, I have no time to think, ah, it was heavy. Right. There is no time to think about it.

I mean, 'cause you have two kids. I

have two children to take care of and they are also become very restless because nobody understood us.

Right. Oh, true. Yeah. For them as well. Yeah.

Yeah. So it is not yet having time for thinking that I am in the difficulties or I am having great challenge. Yeah. It's about adjusting still.

Very interesting. And like, how did you feel though? Like, 'cause I, I feel like it, it probably has like an emotional toll on you as well, that there's people there but you can't really interact with them. And then also the kids are also kind of having difficulty at school probably because how did that feel? Well, my mother-in-law back then, she continued speaking, Finnish with me.

Yeah. Yeah.

And my husband back then, he travelled a lot

and there's no help from him because

I have to always, like,

I, I, I take my,

I took my dictionary and then Let\`s say I say I want to eat. I will use all the verbs. So like you go to dictionary and you're like " syödä"

like you said, I want to eat "Minä". "Minä", everything verbs, you know?

Yeah.

Uh, will is in the "aikoa", you know, yeah. "

aiko". yeah, "

Minä aikoa syödä" All the verbs because, and thank God, you know, the Finns are very kind.

Yeah.

Especially them, they don't laugh at

me. Very important.

They, they'll try very hard to get what I want. Yeah. "syödä, syödä" Because there is in the real language, you have to say "syö",

right. Eat,

want to eat. You will say that, "Haluan". Yeah. But then, then you say "Halua syödä", so every verbs all together. Right. So that's the way I survived my first year,

that is crazy. But yeah, that's like, also, it's, um, somebody was telling me the other day, I saw a thing where it's like, when you're being resilient the resilience is like a cool, resilience is like a cool word, but when you're being resilient, it does not look nice at all when you're going through the struggle. It's like, but like, it's always worshipped. Like, oh, you went through the struggle and you did the thing. But in the moment, no, it was fun at all. It's not fun at all. Yeah.

But, okay. So, um, walk me a bit through like the learning journey. Like what kind of things worked and what didn't?

Yeah. In the, I realized after my integration Finnish course. I was keeping the, using the mindset of English way of, grammatical, the grammar. And during all the time that I use that method, it's very difficult for me to get to be penetrated with Finnish language.

Mm.

Because all the time I'm thinking about the, how that words is built, how that words is translated or implemented. Yeah. But it's, very wrong because Finnish language have its own a change of, in every words in time and every situation there is a. Plural situation. There is a single situation. Mm-hmm. There is a singular situation. There is, not just plural and singular, but it's also there is, repetitions, right. Situation. So all of this, you cannot get them, just through the course. Right. It's from the, from the interaction talking with people.

Right. So

I found out after my course time I'm getting better. I get it. Like I can use to say,, the simple words like "Minä haluan syödä". I have already said that correctly. And then, but, to be able, because some people very good with the grammatic, with all of this, the level of the grammatical rules, you know, and everything that you understand, like, --- and, yeah. All, all of this ablatiivi, this kind of stuff, you know?

Yeah.

But for me, I was not very interested to know too much because I will not write books, so I'm a, become a writer. I really need to understand all of this language, term terminology. Mm-hmm. So I learned how to, to communicate myself and convey my, my thoughts. My understanding, with the not confusing, not confusing way. That's the, the grammatical for me. And then I learned also to forget the English, mindset because it's completely two different thing, right? Yes. There is, the yesterday, the past tense. Yeah. But completely different way, like English, past tense. Yeah. Because, , this is two things that I realized and then I learned also by, reading newspaper. So by listening to, to talk with people and then reading the, you know, like this free newspapers. Mm-hmm. Like that. I'm just reading how I want to see how that language is. Actually, going, you know, because the newspaper lang language is always correct, ah, yes, they're correct. Communicatively and correct, with the, oh, the grammatical. So when I'm reading that, oh, that's the way to, to ch that it's changed because I can understand, but completely different. The verbs changing, you know, , to become, different, you know, like when you say "mennä", let's go, it's "mennä". That's the, the, like a order, like a like that. Yeah. But then there is "mentävä", you know, that's from "mennä". Oh, this means I had to, I have to go, then you say from the same word, "menetetty", that's already changed again. You know? It's,, it's gone. Mm.

Mmm

You cannot catch it anymore. And then it is going to say "mennessä" and, on my way to go, you know? Right. All of this coming. I didn't realize when I learned from the time of, Finnish course, I learned it by reading the newspaper.

Mm.

Listening to the news and talking with people. So like in practice, like in practice. And then I become, I think in my sixth year I start reading a novel book.

Oh wow. In year six already?

Yeah. Okay. 'cause, uh, in my six to seven seven. Yeah. So, 'cause somehow my comprehension grew.

Hmm.

Grew of that words, that's the time when I said I, I must forget all my English grammatical, and the rules and all that, uh, implementation.

Right?

So I become more, immersed to, Finnish, way of, it's really, it is really true when you become, somehow you get into the Finnish, characters. Mm-hmm. This Finnish character, this language, also Finnish characters in it, you know, the character. , You only can experience it , when you genuinely want to know. Right. When you genuinely willing to learn. In my case, I was very much in need. So because, my, my family broken, so I become alone. I have to take care of all my official things by myself. So it was like a reality needs also.

Yeah.

And you cannot depend on somebody's interpretation for you.

Yeah. So, yeah, you are moving on their time as well. Yeah. And at which point did this happen? Which year?

I came 1996. I got divorced in 1999. Okay. After we, we got married almost 10 years. Okay. When we are coming here to Finland. Okay. And by then, in the first years, I was so much have to trust people interpretation for me.

Yeah.

Until one time it pops me a lot that, for example, , I lost my custody to my two boys because I trusted. I trusted that I was giving the, I was giving the whole right of my children. My boys back then. And I didn't know that was the words it said there. It was a very big, uh, mistakes to just, to trust.

Wait, so you, you were given the custody of the children, but then you didn't understand what it was saying?

We signed under the custody agreement of children.

Yeah.

But I did not understand. It was mentioned there, "full custody is given". That's meaning I gave my right away. Oh, exactly. Oh, so you see, so big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially back then, not so much English. Yeah. In the government office. And there was no Google Translate as well. I know Google translate was far, far, far away.

Yeah.

Yeah. So for that reason, then I started to know, I found out afterwards that I have no right to complain anything about my, my boys, because I leave them to the father, for the time that I'm looking job, you know, I'm going to find job, cause in that small city was no job. Right. I have to go away to find job after my divorce. Yeah. For because of that, that I really, really trying my best to speak this language.

Yeah. Yeah. Would you say like, that was like the turning point or was there some other, I mean, you had already started trying to learn Finnish. Mm-hmm.

But to become fluent, right. To become able to present, yourself. It, it's really that that was the turning point, right. From now on, I have to manage my affairs. Yeah. 'cause so many cases when something to do with children, you are having. You have to have con , communication all the time with the local authority. Yeah. Because children in this country are very protected.

Yeah. Which is good, I guess.

Yeah. The local authority will always try to get everything fine. They will not have so much communication with you. But if the, the children still under, under 16 years old, especially in the tender age, like, , 8, 9, 10, yeah. They're very much completely into, attention of the local authority.

I'm pretty sure. Of all the episodes I'm gonna have, I don't think there's gonna be a bigger, compelling reason than this one that I lost the custody of the kids because of the Yeah. That's, that's massive.

Yeah. Because you trust people and because you, you have to trust people because you don't understand.

Yes. You don't have, you don't have a choice there.

Yeah. And then this trust, can be very, damaging . but thank God I got my children back in 2002. Great. After three years. Great, great. But it is, yeah. No, it's does not happen like that often. Right. Yeah.

So, what resources did you use in the language journey and were there any that surprised you? How useful they are, or how useless they are?

When I started to have a full-time job, I moved to Helsinki back then already, then I got the five days, working days, and then I start talking with people. I still have not communicated my Finnish in the good way. It, that was already my third year. Mm-hmm.

When you moved to Helsinki, that was third year? Yeah. Okay. My,

My third year I moved to Helsinki. Okay. It's 1999. Sometime in summer and then I talk, but maybe I'm, not, implementing the understanding of the, of the grammatical , base. And also my dictionary was not, my vocabulary was not yet grown very much. Right. Because I didn't talk with people a lot. Right. And when I was working at work, I start to use my Finnish language, but many time my friend didn't understand. But this is the best part of the community of Finnish native. They don't laugh at you.

Yeah.

They're so, what do you call it? They are so kind. Yeah. They will so polite and thinking like this, what is this? "Anita tried to say" and they'll say "can you tell it in English? I don't get what you mean." Right. And then when I say, oh, I said like, ah, you mean da da da. Then

they'll show you how to say,

and

then they would say that in the

correctly. Okay. That's the way. Then I'm become, I think after one year I work, five days a week. Mm-hmm. And talking with people, I started to become, my language developed, my vocabulary developed. Yeah. And all that I thought, about , my understanding deepened, deepen my practice. And I also don't feel ashamed, even though not everybody understand.

Right.

That's, encouraging me because people not laugh at me. Right. Yeah. And yeah, that's when I was going to work and working with the, native Finnish people.

What work were you doing at that at back time?

I was in the, already starting in the restaurant. I changed my line of, working before I was in the office when I came to Finland. I still have a six month internship, office work, but no, no one care for English speaking ability working office work back then. Right. Yeah. So then I think I must work, so I do, I tend to restaurant online. Okay. Okay. Restaurant service. From that time until now. Yeah. Still doing this work.

Yeah. So in your case, you, the resources you used were, like just speaking to people. Reading

news, reading newspaper, and listening to tv. Right. And also involved with some people with the people conversation.

Okay. Were there some methods that you found, maybe, somebody recommended or you heard about that you found like, eh, this is quite useless.

Well, I think, in my opinion back then,

yeah,

I will, not so much. Like I said at, in the beginning, I am never going to become a writer , writing book or anything. Mm-hmm. So I don't deepen myself to all the, terms and the, in the grammar . In the grammars. I don't go to the very important, very, , deepen about that. But all I needed to know is that I have to use the building, the sentence , with the correct grammar and, taking the message that I want. For example, I want to say like this, " I want to go to visit my family, but somehow I don't have, always enough money." So in the conversation language- "Haluaisin kyllä mennä mun sukulaislleni mutta mulla ei ole koskaan rahaa." It sounds good, right?

Mm-hmm.

But if I want to write that, well- "Haluaisin käydä mun sukulaiseni luona ja kyläillä mutta mun talous ei ole kovin vahva."

Yeah. Right, right.

You know, you just get bang, bang, bang, bang. Right? That's all just, just like a. It's a conversation. Very, very clear. What's the case? Yeah. But "mun talous" is my economy. That means the whole things of my income. And it's also almost the same. But at least much more clear.

Yeah. But, I have a similar thing , with the grammar. That's like, I just wanted to be able to get my point across. Yeah. So I don't see a need to study the grammar so much. And also the writing,

As long as that, you don't mean you going to write, but when you are starting to write,

yeah.

You need to understand every words what you are.

right. Yeah. Yeah. But then in my case, I also got lucky that like chat GPT came and then I'll just write, it's helping you, and then I'll just tell it to correct it for me. Which it doesn't help me get better, but I don't, yeah. It's a whole other thing. Yeah. So what observations have you made about other people learning?

I think they have to, this is my, advice to everyone who desire to learn language, especially Finnish Hmm. Forget that you speak English. Let it be, become the helper for you to explain what do you mean? Right. But don't go, that's the basic that you want to, and then you learn that, Finnish by reading, reading every small stuff, and then listen to the radio so you can always learning and listening at the same time.

Mm.

But don't take it like, like a burden. You must want it, right. If you don't want it. Yeah. Or the whole of your system will say, this is not important.

Yeah,

. You must really, really meant it. . Okay. You will get it. Yeah. It's not impossible

though,

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's not impossible. Yeah. It's the only thing that you start to be feeling. "Ah, I'm ashamed. People will think I'm stupid." No, not at all.

Yeah. That's actually one that I struggled with because, humble brag, but I've quite, for longest time being good at school stuff. So when I forced myself to switch to Finnish. And I was like, "oh, people are going to think I'm so stupid." Especially because in my case, my pronunciation for Finnish was very good. So it sounds like you are supposed to know how to speak it. Mm. But then

I know, I know how to speak.

I don't,

I have been there, so, but I don't, I am not going, I'm never going to be a Finnish speaking as a fluent as Finn. Right. I will always like, uh, every six to 10 sentences, I will have a one or two mistakes, but that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know I will never be, become Finn. Right. There was time in my life saying, I'll never speak this language, but here I am.

Yeah. I'm very like, proud of you, like how you've gone through the whole thing and it's like so remarkable 'cause back then we don't have the resources that we have to have.

Not at all.

No English. Yeah. It's insane how you've been able to go overcome everything.

It is difficult, but yeah. Like you, when you decided to come to the, this is something that I would like always to say to every immigrant, wherever you go.

Mm.

When you decided to go to that country. Go. All the challenges with that is always in the package.

Mm. You know?

Yeah. Don't mistake and don't mistake yourself with the decision that you make and then you wanna be cherry picking things. Right.

Right.

it's, impossible theory.

Yeah. Are there any, surprising or unconventional things that you did that other people might not think of to try?

I remember I tried to write essay. Mm-hmm. Okay. And then Finnish who read that and say, "this is must be English speaking person who write this essay" because the essay Yeah. The objective of every subject can be, all upside down. Ah, right. Yeah. You know, the Finnish language is always like, sometime it's coming first the object the objective before the subjects come along. And then the, all the predicate and all the explanation of the explanation in English is much more like, da, Da, Da, but in Finnish language, let's say when you want to show the direction

mm-hmm.

In English, they say "you walk hundred meters a bit in the corner, you turn left."

Mm-hmm.

And from the left, there will be roundabout, and then you get out to the second exit."

Mm.

That's what you said in English. Right. But in Finnish and then you say That's the, you don't get the English, the Finnish fully, you know? Right. You.

Right. That's when you're just translating. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Because you translate that almost like, yeah. But of course whenever you're in the world, when you try to show the direction Yeah. It's the one that the, when you don't fluent, you will explain it very difficult,

right? Yeah. Actually, yeah.

I know some, I have seen so many people having so trouble to show the direction. Especially direction having two, three, third. Hmm.

Right.

Anyway, so essay and the direction, that was the very funny way of experience for me. And I realized, oh, I must get that really clear so, I can be, a good, giving a good direction sometimes to

other people. Right. So you focus on like writing, essay writing and then also like being able to give directions properly? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good, especially official letters when you have some problem. Yeah. For example in the past when I was still depending to the welfare system, I have to explain things.

This

explanation must be correct. Not too much explanation. You must go straight. Yeah. Straight.

Yeah.

I have the need of this because this is my, the situation is this is the amount that I have by myself, so that's why I need help. So you don't have to make so much so much drama story.

I find myself, especially back then, like to explain something that takes maybe five words. I have this thing where I would explain it in 15 words or 20 because I don't have the correct short words to use. But yeah,

it's very, especially Finnish in the Finnish, system. They are not with feeling reading. They are reading with facts, you know, and then they'll check of course, they'll very verify all your information. So that's why no need to, I learned that after, after many years in the first year I was, I was writing "because of this da da. Yeah. I really in the difficulties because of the, I have so much thing that", you know, it's nothing, it's not making any difference. Right. If it is wrong, then it's wrong. Yeah.

Okay, so with the surprising things or unconventional things was essay writing and then focus on how to, give directions Well, and as, as close to native as possible.

What are like passive things that you did that are like, by that question, I mean things that you have already set up or they happen to be in a certain kind of way and that helped you.

Yeah. , For example, when I am with the academic people, they have this, certain level of language, terminology, what they use. Then my Finnish language become, increase, the quality, the terminology , it's much more clear. If it was, only like people, let's say I'm only with the restaurant people working, then my language is depend to what they are talking. That's the level of the language that I will continue. But then when I have a, friends who are, academic, like customer who are academics, academic, positions. And they are as a, maybe as a lecturer or as a teacher or as a, professor or anything. The communication increased my, ear. And then listening to the debate of the politic debate and then uh, economic,

conversation.

Conversation, yeah. It's increased my my memories about this is the, this is the, terminology that is correctly being used. Something like that. Yeah. So I never stopped to learn. Right. Even to this day.

And okay, so basically when you are around certain people, that helped you increasing Yeah. Like kind of expands your, expand my knowledge of the Finnish. In your case, you had to go to work and your workplace was in Finnish.

In different places. Yeah. Some offices, some university.

Right. Yeah. And I think most of them were Finnish. Yeah. Finnish language. Yeah. So you didn't have to do anything to make that happen. No. You just showed up to work and that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's already one passive thing. And then what about, did you like, I don't know, set all your phone things to be and Finnish or? Yeah. Or like kids hobbies or something like that?

I actually, when I make some. Let's say , I'm doing this popup, like a festival popup we are selling it, so mm-hmm. I have to make a report to the health department. Okay. So somehow I cannot get it well, when I write, when I put that into English.

Ah-huh.

I realize it many, many years Now when I return to, I want to teach someone then going to English. Ah. I don't get this one, I must change it to Finnish.

Right. So when you apply for the purpose Yeah. Like a re

registering. Yeah. Okay. We are now selling, we are going to sell food. Yeah. Let's say a global village or some festival. Yeah. Then I have to inform the, that we are going to sell there da da da da, something like that. But when I cannot feel it in English version. Right. Because all the words completely different that I wanted to understand. Then the one that it in Finnish, somehow when it's translated to English, I understand it become completely separate. Okay. Completely different. Okay. Maybe because I have been in the restaurant work, so all of them are, for me, it's much more natural and Finnish. Right. I had been doing it what it said in Finnish language. I know exactly what it meant. You know, something like that.

I get that every now and then. Yeah. Sometimes there's a word I wanna say. Yeah. And, I only know it in Finnish. I don't know, it doesn't really...

for example "omavalvonta"

right.

Is the worst of the --- of the restaurant. Yeah. So in the English was it said, uh, hygiene supervision. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. If it's too big for hygiene supervision "omavalvonta" we know what is the stuff that we have to do that.

Okay. But, so essentially, was it. With this kind of forms that you had to fill or like pass on... Official papers.

I want to

always fill it in Finnish. And, but, in the case of the popup, was it like, if you don't do it in Finnish it, it doesn't come out very well ?

I cannot explain myself better. Okay.

Because you happen to know the words that you Finnish? Yes.

Okay. Yes.

I can

explain to other in English. Yeah. But when it is official, I don't want to write that in English.

Okay. So it's like basically any kind of bureaucracy you try to handle and Finnish and you had to go to work. Yes. That's another passive thing that reinforced your Finnish language learning. Yes. And then, what about like hobbies or, I don't know, the kids things, hobbies or things that the kids had to go to, then you had to maybe interact with other parents. Are there any other kind of things that. It was like you are doing something anyways. Mm-hmm. But then it just happens to also help the Finnish.

Well in time when the children were little. Yeah. Especially my boys.

Mm-hmm.

This is just a little bit back backward. Mm. , They were Mama, nobody understand my, our language. We must speak only Finnish. Okay. Okay. And then they forgot my mother tongue already. Oh, no. Yeah. I have, uh, sacrificed a lot to, to get this. And then they even changed. "Nobody call mama here, mama. We have to call you Äiti." And I was like, "There it goes", no, no, no. "There goes my sweet name." I said, mama, that was gone when they were like seven and eight. Yeah. Since then, it was happened like 28 years ago. Yeah. When they changed that. You know, children, you kids, you want to be like everybody, everyone else. Yeah.

But then we don't realize that , the sauce is being different.

It was a support, help to my children. And then I could not be any help though in the beginning of the school of my children very much, because I cannot, maybe the only thing that I can help is mathematics.

Every

other thing

else. Yeah. It requires

language. The reading must be language. Yeah. The history must be language. A hundred percent. Yeah. So yeah, I could not be any help to my children until they were 16, 17.

Okay. Yeah. When I was growing up in Ghana, we used to have, 'cause you mentioned radio. Mm-hmm. At my grandma's house, we always had the radio on, like always had the radio on. Mm-hmm. So even now I can't, it's so hard for me to just be in silence. So is that one of the things do you also have the habit of just always having the radio on the background or No?

Radio is only in the time of that I want to listen. Okay. Let's say like a tv, you cannot watch TV all day. The radio for me is the same. They cannot listen to radio all day. Okay. But only the time that, okay, this is too quiet now, that's, yeah.

When I was growing up, we had the radio on all the time. It was, but it helped a lot with my Twi and then also with my English as well, because you hear a lot of things that I wouldn't, I hear a lot of things that I wouldn't be discussing with my grandmother or at school. Mm. So if they're talking about, I don't know, judiciary, that's like, that's a word that if I'm not reading from a book Yeah. I'm not necessarily gonna get from school. So it helps with the vocabulary, I suppose. Yeah. So with the passive was the children speaking with the children, the bureaucracy? Mm-hmm. Then there was a third thing I forgot. Talking

with the, you know, with the people surround my work Oh yeah. Work.

Yeah. Yeah. And then what are the active things that you did, like the ones that you like deliberately, I'm gonna go do this specifically so that I can learn, Finnish. Do you have a study routine, speaking habits, et cetera? Yeah.

Well, in my household, yeah. We are speaking Finnish.

Right?

We don't speak English. English is only coming after my son having wife because she does not speak Finnish yet. Ah. But she will be. So similar situation. I see you. Yeah. Yeah. But she will be what day. She will be. Okay. So we, in our family chat group , often we are in Finnish. Mm-hmm. So, but then. We started to think that maybe it's good also in English now and then.

Okay, so now you're talking about like now? Now these days. Yeah. But then back then it used to be more of, it happened, it wasn't like a deliberate choice. It just kind of happened back in the day.

Officially. Yeah. Every working week I have this switch on Finnish. Yeah. Now it's Finnish just, but after work switch off. Now it's English. So, uh, you know, the sign of that? That now I don't speak Finnish. I suddenly, I don't remember everything- in English, - in Finnish. Okay. See yeah. When it's switched on. Yeah. I'm, I will be completely, my mode is Finnish .

Yeah.

No English coming. But when I am finished working. I am not at work. I'm in my free time. Yeah. And then I neglect everything. But Finn, and then I started to speak English. Right. And then, but, uh, Finnish language are very strong. Right. It's always penetrated. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Very strong. Okay, so family chat, you have, that's one of active thing you, you do. Was there anything that you did actively?

I'm reading book,

reading books. Finnish

book. Okay. Okay. I read one novel like this, Remes. Wow. Okay. The book is, the name is Remes. I read that. I got so much of the building sentences ability

through it. Right. And it's not easy Finnish. There was not "selkosuomi", not easy Finnish. No. It's just not literature. Yeah. Book. Okay. You know?

Yeah. They are not writing a bit

conversation language. Yeah. Which year was this?

Well I think in 2000, between 2005. I'm already reading books.

Books. That's like your year eight, year nine, I think. Yeah. but then before that, like how did you get to- I

always using that radio, listening, tv, listening people, the discussion

and newspaper. And then then also you, of course, you were speaking to people.

And then I am of course applying it, implementing it in

work and stuff

In the working

place. Yeah. And how long were you in, like courses? How many years?

I don't have any other courses, but that integration course,

The six months, that's all? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because this is very important. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people just rely on courses.

They have to make an effort outside of the course- of the course as well.

Yeah. It's important, the course. Yeah. But I think people have this kind of, I was, when I was explaining how I did it. I was telling how, it's not like biology or. I don't know, history, where if you go to the class enough times and you pay attention, you'll learn enough to do something to pass the exam. At least with that one, the goal is to pass the exam. Right. But here the goal is to be able to speak in a way that comes- And that

is speaking and making that people understand what you are. Yeah. So just go to course. And you understand by yourself too. Yeah. You understand? Yeah. Let's say when you, you want to say, ah, I don't like this room because this room is, looks like too much black. And how can you say that if you don't get the right words for that, you know, in another language. Do we only, I mostly people only just use, "I don't like that room".

Yes. But

no details. Yeah. The purpose of that we speak that we can make the other people understand what we- What we see, what we feel, what we think. Yeah. That's the purpose that is good to practice them. To say it until, but if you nobody you talk with, you can never develop. You always have to. For example in my in church. Now, and then I always speak, the Finnish with our people. Yeah. And then they'll, uh, reply me back. I really meant it, you know, to speak that they reply me back- in Finnish? In Finnish. Okay. I think it is good to continue doing it in my opinion because, I want my brothers, my sisters to- that they got it. Yeah. That they got it. That this is not always, this is only the area of free, of speaking-, free of Finnish language. Right. Not like that, that we really have to take it like it is part of us No. Wherever we go. Mm. It's good that we speak always like clearly with English. But it's also good that we can say maybe not always like a very serious things, for example, things like that, it looks like, like a simple things, but to get that, that I say that.

Mm-hmm.

I think my sister, my, they will understand that. Okay. That's the way to say it right now. I know,

right? Yes.

Yeah. I can tell. Yeah. And it is like something get their ears because ears is always memorizing into our ways. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

What conscious changes did you make in your life that like, made it easier to practice than to not practice? Uh- I mean like when you were learni

ng.

Yeah when I was learning, the only enemy of my learning is I'm tired 'cause my brain keep on, keep on thinking.

Mm.

That's the only, delaying me to give, to be much more advanced. Right. 'cause I'm tired. So it is mental things.

Yeah.

So it's nothing to do that, whether you like it or not, that's actually the case. So if you, if I wanted to be able to be advanced, yeah. I must not be stopped because of I'm tired, I will be just resting for a bit. Okay. Alright. Now I just don't want to think in Finnish

Yeah.

So it's just you give your time, you know, like a time out for a bit and then go back like that.

Right. So you gave yourself time to kind of rest in order to be able to keep going. Okay.

Keep pressing on yourself.

Yeah.

It's natural that your body continually become stressful and then you will not become much more better when you're stressed. Okay. Give uh, your time out , and then go back again when you feel fresh again- So mental rest-, continue to continue these days. Even chatGPT can help you, but try to write it. If you want to use chatGPT, try to say that in Finnish and then ChatGPT, translate that to to English. Ah. And you see, are you saying that rightly.

Okay. Okay.

So I think these days the technology can help you another way around. Try the Finnish language and let the ChatGPT write it to you in English. So

when you ask it the question, ask in Finnish, but let it respond to you in English?

Let's say, "translate what I'm saying to English". Let's say you say like that. Okay. But you say like the, for example. Right. And then- Tell it to translate that to you- Let it uh, do you know, you already understand what you are saying- Right -in Finnish. Will it be corrected by the chatGPT? That's meaning you are already saying it right. Okay. Okay. So you are testing your language. Yeah. Your ability. Yeah. Okay. I think that's what I do also. Okay.

Okay. So with the conscious things that you did to help was like to rest. Like mental rest. Yeah. Give your time.

Yeah. Give your time time out.

What else? Because usually like humans have this thing where like water flows where it's easiest to flow, right? Mm-hmm. So are there any things that you did that would prevent you from not practicing? Like back in the first like five years especially?

Yeah. I think when I meet so many friends who always speak English mm-hmm. And they don't want to, they don't want to use Finnish language. Yeah. I think that's, uh, something that back then sometime I like it, but then sometime I know this is not helping me. Yeah. And the other thing else is listening to, you know, the native of the Finnish people? Mm-hmm. They have all of all something like always one word, two words, three words, five words. You never heard that before. I'm always so confused. And then I was like, especially when they say proverbs. Yeah. Ah, Finnish language. Ah, I'm always so confused. Ah, back then I didn't. And then when I understood Finnish language, oh, that is so much like in my country, they have the same words. Ah. So like that. Right. So that's again, that's ignite my my interest continually. Okay. But you know, plus negative things always around you but

yeah. And one thing I've realized is integration is like a big factor. Like how well the person has gotten themselves into like, Finnish society. Mm-hmm. So I notice a lot of my, not a lot of my necessarily my friends, but like a lot of people when they come from some country, they hang out or only spend time with people from that same country. And I don't think that really helps in learning the language. How did you integrate yourself into Finland in that culture? Like in that way?

The first five years I don't have any Indonesian that I can be leaning on, you know?

Yeah.

It was completely, I was completely alone. You know, I have a broken marriage back then.

Mm-hmm.

And I think something also personal that you lose trust to anyone.

Yeah.

Especially there is this, uh, common mind about, uh, I could be wrong already back then, but that's what I thought back then that I am now having a broken marriage. I shouldn't be talking anything about my life with anyone. So plus there is no community that I am already in included or I build the trust together.

Yeah.

No. Second, having personal life, which is, you don't want to be bragging anything about it. And the third, that I must make it by my own. That's uh, three things was keeping me, uh, in the integration time. That I have to make this language Finnish language learning worthwhile.

Right.

Because I want to build friendship because not because I'm clinging in, you know, but because there is the same interest like friendship group of people. Yeah. And mostly my friend was all Finns. Right. I mean thank God that I'm very social person.

Mm-hmm.

I told you in the beginning, even though, I don't speak Finnish very well, but I tried my, my all and then people accepting me. Yeah. I think one thing that I learned about the native Finns when you are genuine and you are not as hostile in your characters, they're very easy to become friendly. They don't isolate you. Sometimes we can be meeting often times.

I feel like that's a bit different to what I've heard, but is it because maybe the times have kind of maybe changed a bit? Probably. Okay.

I think it is from the 28 years ago. Yeah. To 25 years ago. I think. So much changed during the last 18, 15 years. Yeah.

So much. Yeah. Because what I've heard is that like, and. I wouldn't say I've experienced it because I've, I have friends here already, I've heard that especially people in like Helsinki, they already have their friends and they're not looking to make new friends outside of that. Mm. But I guess you have a different experience from that. Yeah.

Yeah. In my experience, I can be friend with all of kind of different people.

Mm.

Finns all and other international.

But this is more like Finn, people don't usually take, at least nowadays it seems, from what I've heard, that Finnish people are not taking new people into their friend groups necessarily.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

They don't take, but when you meet in the personal level

Yeah. For

example, you are at work,

you're working, right? Mm-hmm.

People don't make friend in the work.

Mm-hmm.

Only in time of day you have time for personal talk.

Right.

Right. That's the, at the moment of time thinking. We'll be able to go spending time for a weekend in the cottage or anything like that.

Mm.

That's the place, the time that you can know you become friends. Yeah, all my Finnish Friends. Women and men. Yeah. All of this 25, I have been working now 28 years. No, wait a minute. 1990 26 years I have been working. All of the friend that I have been making friend all of this 26 years, they are still talking with me with the warm. Wow. All Finnish Wow. Okay. So it's only because of, time and busyness that we cannot, life change in life situation change, that we cannot be meeting so often. Yeah. But if there is like a let's reunion, I think we will meet and we will be so happy. Yeah. And all of them have become like the friend that I will always remember one.

Yeah.

The way they also think about me.

That's what I think. That's a really positive to hear. Yeah.

And that's true. You know? Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So in your case then, it was basically, yeah. You didn't really know anyone here. So pretty much everyone you got to know. Yeah. I

opened myself to them. Yeah. They become open up, uh, to me too. They become friend with me. Right. So the community that I be, I created together with them- right- through works. Yeah.

Okay. And, from your experience when people don't like succeed at learning Finnish, what would you, from your outside experience, what would you say has, is usually the reason for that?

They are prejudice to themselves too much, you know. Oh, okay. They're already "ah, I sound so bad". One and the two "It's so difficult". Three, "nobody understand me". So everything is actually subjective.

Right.

Too much subjective,

uh, appreciation. Right. Okay. So yeah. Like "oh it's too hard". Then you

sounded very, very bad. Yeah. You sounded stupid or something like that. The second. And then" it's very hard to learn this language" because like I said, uh, if you keep on thinking the way your own mother tongue or your English, that is become triple difficult. Yeah. You must remember you are learning another people, another nation language language. It is meant to be that you don't understand completely at once

in the short time. If only you could just press a button and then press download the language.

No. Every process if you want, these days you have, you can have chatGPT and then you say in English, and then now you don't have to learn so much, but if you want to keep it by yourself. Yeah. That you can continue without gadget. Yeah. Then you have to let yourself swimming and emerging in it. Yeah. Okay.

What did you do that others don't? Because considering the fact that a lot of people get to the lower B level than they write the YKI test and maybe they get a job and then they stop learning more.

Exactly.

Yeah. So, what did you do that others don't?

What I do is that when I, once I get this Finnish language ability in my mind and in my heart, I continue using it. I don't stop.

Yeah.

I will be talking to everywhere. Yeah. To the shop, to the people, to the bus. Right. Always in Finnish. Right. I don't use English. I will only using English to those my friend who does not speak in Finnish

Finnish. Okay. Okay. And that's a conscious effort. And

it's conscious effort. Yeah. Okay. So you don't, you don't have to brag in your English. Yeah. Because you already have it, right? Yeah. Okay. That's I think, what I do and other people don't.

Yeah. We're almost at the end now so there are six parts to learning a language if that, if there's more I've not looked too deep into it, but yeah, I just think of the six parts for me at least, and it's like vocabulary, speaking, listening, grammar, reading, and then writing. So I'll just quickly go through them and I just list them and then you just say what things you did mm-hmm. To improve on that part. Mm-hmm. Okay. So let's start with vocabulary.

Vocabulary is by continue reading. What is, what, like that first thing is the daily things. What do you do in the daily things? Mm. Like daily life? Yeah. From morning to the evening. What stuff? Then you remember all of that, you know, all of that vocabulary, especially objective. And then vocabulary of the what you come from your hearts. You know, like for example, you want to tell us something. Mm-hmm. It's different to the daily life things, you know? You can feel like I really miss my childhood. That is not a daily things. Right, right. But you have it in your heart. Oh, I want to pray. I love very much to go to church and teach me a peaceful . This is this kind of things, you know, you have to have vocabulary to understand.

Yeah. Yeah. So basically what you're saying is like that the doing these things are places where you picked up the new words from. Mm. Okay. And when you picked up the new words, how did you like memorize them?

Like for example, I love the words of praising and worship God, you know? Yeah. So in my past, before I come become a walking with faith Christians, I find out, ah, "ylistys" "palvoa". Wow. What a word. You know? Mm-hmm. That's not everyday words, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Ylistys, ylistän Jumala rakastan Jeesus Valvoan Jeesus Yeah.

This is coming from you seek for that? Yeah. And personally specific area. Yeah. Okay. So the daily things, you will keep using that every day. Yeah. That vocabulary will be never forgotten after. Right. So if you like, uh, for example, food, you also need to learn the vocabulary of that. What, what is "so delicious"

right. "Herkullista" So in, in these situations is it like from the literature that it comes with or from like going to check from the dictionary. Something that you are

very interesting.

Yeah.

Try and then every part, every objective that you are interested Yeah. Find that, vocabulary and-

But is it like, are you finding the words from. From like the dictionary or from, I guess from church things. From the Bible, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. From the

Bible. Then I go to find the dictionary. Dictionary, but

then for like food related

things. Food. And then I go from the restaurant and area and go to the dictionary.

Dictionary. Okay, so you hear it, then you go to, yeah, and then see,

yeah, what does that mean?

and then well speaking, I mean, I think that one, you've already said that you. Work. Just, yeah. You spoke to people and then mm-hmm. I

communicate in Finnish

Finnish. Yeah. So I'm talking specifically about when you were learning. Yeah, yeah. Like how did you get the speaking practice in?

Speaking practice, I keep talking with people.

Yeah.

Even though it was not perfect. Yeah.

Okay.

Doesn't matter. Yeah. It'll, I, I said to myself one day, I'll be so good that there is nothing anymore that I, nobody will correct me anymore. Right

Same as well. Yeah. What about this, um, listening? I'm guessing? Well, it's the same kind of,

I'm listening, I told you radio, TV, and people talking.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then grammar,

yes, grammar is, is very important for me to understand why it is, maybe I don't know the specific terminology, but I know what is that meant to do.

Mm.

Like when you use the Finnish language, uh, va and the, and the ssa. And what is that? When you, when the "ä" with the, everything has be the same that, "ä" same like Yeah. That will never go "menna", right. It'll never go in, "menttävä".

Yeah.

It's always like, that's the kind of the, I don't always remember. What does that mean in the grammatical, terminology for that, but I understand how to use it.

But then the main question there , on that one was like how did you learn it

yeah. By observing when people talk about, let's say they talk about economy. I try to find that, oh yeah, that's exactly what it is, you know? Right. So I make the observation. I make the application and implementing

it. Okay. So just by listening to how maybe there's "talous", "taloutta" and then things like that, then you just, okay, so it's the same word.

"talous" "taloutta", "talouden" yeah. There, there are three things and where it is implemented, how Okay. And how to apply. Okay. Something like that.

Okay. And then with reading, you mentioned about newspapers and books "Ilkka Remes" yeah. And what else? Well,

I am also listening to, you know, to preaching, Finnish preaching.

And then the last one of these six is writing. How did you practice writing?

Well, I have not changed very much since the time that I was, and "this is right, this must be not native speaking Finnish person." Yeah, I think I'm still in there. My writing is terrible too. Yeah. I still writing like 80% sounding Finnish, but the other 20% still mixed up in the between. Right, right. But it's okay. I think until now already 25 years that I have been dealing direct with the official, they have never complained that they don't understand.

That's a big positive. Yeah, that's a big positive.

You know, when something official things.

Yeah.

And they understood.

Yeah. And I got

the answer.

I'm happy. Everything

fine.

I'm happy. Yeah. So can you tell me about like the times when you found it, like most difficult to continue chasing the Finnish?

I think right now my challenge is I would like to elevate my Finnish, uh, level. Yeah. It's meaning that I can speak, I can understand when people speaking something like just normal social situation. Yeah. But not anymore of it just simple vocabularies and the terms, but it's become more more significant and more directed. Some people will tell comprehensive. And then some people will say like, oh, you know, see two different things. Right? When you say comprehensive, that's meaning I get it. You know?

Mm-hmm.

When you call like a comprehensiveness mean you understand deeply and all the detail in it, that's why it's comprehend. But when you say, I get it. You don't know what's the level of that understanding, you just get it so it can be, , the level two, if it is five level. It can be also just the level three, but you can never get it, into a detail through the words that is chosen. No. You can never get completely clear. Let's say you are talking about cleaning, ability. Yeah. The other one experienced and the other one capable. So sometime you cannot see the difference. Right, right,

right.

The one that who does that with experience and, well, the other one who are capable, why they are not using is very much experience. But the other one, capable. Capable meaning is much more , can tackle the situation of that works. Yeah. That's capable. Experience meaning knows what, how to go with it. Yeah. Okay. So to see is there is a detail there. Yeah. That's the words that I want to Finnish language. That that's the level that you want. The level I want that it's detailed. It's direct it's intentional direction. Yeah. The every words that is used.

And and that's like a level that you want to get to. Yeah. I want

to get I still continue

learning. Of course. That's important. In the first five years what were the times that you found it difficult to continue in the first, like say five, seven years?

Probably to read well. You know, to read and pronounce it well. Yeah. You know what to say in my English or Indonesian language, it's very difficult to use the diphthong. Right. You know, your mouth has to be really move. Yeah. I have a difficulty. Right. That was this diphthong Finnish, diphthong. They are

so difficult. Right. So you had issues with the pronunciation. You

have to Yeah. Pronunciation. Like, uh, okay "ä" and "y" is so easy. Mm-hmm. But when this diphthong part is very difficult . That's my, I think my challenge before in Finnish language, this all diphthong part of the Finnish words.

Right.

You have to say that slowly. That you said it correctly. Yeah. "oikeus" "oikeus asianajaja". What you see- that's the level of the language that did when you start going up.

You don't

use anymore. The simple stuff

anymore. Simple stuff anymore.

Yeah.

Okay. So you really struggled with the pronouncing part of things?

Yeah, but I'm getting it. I'm getting better. Yeah. Yeah. I just have to remember, say it slowly,

slowly. Okay. Well what other times? Do you remember any, like specific kind of things where and times where you found some difficulty learning?

Yeah. When I'm communicate with the customer and then I say

so, in the early years? In the first, like, I think even

sometime these days. Okay. I have to think what to how can I put it? 'cause it's not natural thing, right? Yeah. You cannot just say. You know the waiters is always have to explain what you, if you don't explain very well, they will understand wrong. That's not, that's not good things, you know? Right. Yeah. So I kept, I keep, continue, develop myself Right. About in communicating what I want to say specifically when it's about food. Yeah. When it's about service, when it is about the whole operational. Yeah. Things like that. Right,

Okay. And what words of encouragement can you give to anyone who's feeling like tired of this?

Don't learn, Finnish language by thinking I can get it quickly. One. Two intentional. Take it intentional that you want to learn. It will come to pass, but it will take your effort. Effort is meaning that sometime you need to make time to learn about it, maybe in a day, two hours, but full, full focus. And then meet your friend who speak Finnish and apply, implement the things that you already get.

Mm-hmm. If

you don't, you will find out that it's not correct. Mm-hmm. Because Finns usually will tell.

Yeah.

What do you mean? Ah, they will give the direct correction. Without making you feel that you are stupid. Right? Yeah.

That's,

I think that's, that's my encouragement. Yeah. Okay. Don't be shame.

Yeah. And, um, I think this can be like maybe the last question. How has your life become better now that you live in a country where you speak the language?

Yeah. Globally, this language is one of the most little user in the world. Mm. I think I am having, I'm proud of myself that I speak with this language and I don't want to forget it. Yeah. I think in the next 10 20 years much more little because Finn's not growing very much. So, uh,

no one's having kids. Yeah. And the children

are not so many. So even if they are coming. I hope my children and grandchildren will continue this language. And as long as I live, I don't want to forget this language. That is my, the second thing I feel already this country already my second home.

Yeah. How do you feel like your life has improved now that you live like Finland where you don't speak the language, versus Finland, where you speak the language, how do you feel like your life has improved?

I think the improvement is that I can communicate with everyone.

Mm-hmm.

That's the best part of it, because Finland has been always, supporting the residents and their people.

Mm-hmm.

So I can develop myself.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, there is nobody saying "You cannot do this". No. Yeah. Only stopping you that you don't want to do anything. Right. You can always do everything as long as that you don't like, , wasted- yeah- things, you know, you wasted time, you wasted money. Yeah. And then you don't, you don't bear fruit with what you do.

How has it like, affected also like your employment kind of opportunities and stuff?

Well, since I have been having my personal reason, that's why I don't go with the career, career oriented. Okay. Because I don't really seeking for, making like a developed career. So, mm. Okay. At the beginning it was like for family. Yeah. And then when the children grown up. Yeah. I become believer and then I don't want anymore to. I'm not very ambitious anymore.

Right, right. So I

was still good. Yeah. Everything's still fine.

Yeah. But, and how about like, in terms of with family? Has it improved family life now that you speak Finnish?

I think we, with my children, yes. And even with my previous extended family. Yeah.

Yeah. We still,

it's good because, I can really communicate with them Mm. Very well. Okay. And they understand me. Okay. And I understand it. Yeah. Sounds good. Sounds good.

Yeah. I think this is. The last of my like, topic base questions. All right. So I think, yeah, this was already quite.

Thank you for watching or listening to this episode of How I Learned Finish with Ohe. Tune in for the next episode where we'll have another very exciting guest with a totally new background, different life story, circumstances, obstacles, and most importantly, their own unique and creative way of achieving fluency in the Finnish language. Cheers.